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Author Topic:   Atheist vs Agnostic
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 111 (189475)
03-01-2005 2:00 PM


Well, taking the literal definitions of the words:
Atheist: a=without, theist=belief in a deity. Therefore, atheists do not have a belief in a deity.
Agnostic: a=without, gnosis=knowledge. Therefore, agnostics do not have knowledge of a deity. This leaves the possibility that a deity exists, but no knowledge of a deity is present.

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 111 (189476)
03-01-2005 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dan Carroll
03-01-2005 1:59 PM


quote:
If it helps, "atheist" is usually taken to mean "nun-rapist".
In the Altered States of America, atheist is usually taken to mean "liberal" which has about the same connotation as "nun-rapist".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-01-2005 1:59 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 111 (189508)
03-01-2005 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
03-01-2005 3:19 PM


quote:
My question for agnostics is: Since you're presumably pretty negative about the existence of fairies, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, and other fairy tales, why do you make an exception for God?
Poor analogy. Both bigfoot and Nessie are hypothetical physical beings who can be tested for through physical means. All I need to do to discount Nessie is drain Loch Ness, or mow down all of the forests in NA to find Bigfoot. Fairies are in between the physical and supernatural. They are supposed to be ongoing physical manifestations, so they should be amenable to testing. But then again, the absence of fairies can be explained away through supernatural mechanisms, so fairies aren't exactly like Bigfoot or Nessie.
God, or any deity or hosts of deities, are completely supernatural. They act on the physical world through supernatural mechanisms (I know, I know, if it affects the physical it is a physical mechanism, but just humor me for the moment). Due to the supernatural mechanism, their effect on the world would be indistinguishable from an unknown, or undiscovered natural mechanism.
I am agnostic simply because I have not seen evidence, but would not be able to distinguish the evidence from unknown or undiscovered natural mechanisms. I can't know if I am truly experiencing a religious event. Atheists take this lack of knowledge and transfer it to a lack of a deity/deities. I, as an agnostic, prefer to leave it at "I don't know".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 03-01-2005 3:19 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Monk, posted 03-01-2005 4:20 PM Loudmouth has not replied
 Message 38 by crashfrog, posted 03-01-2005 5:22 PM Loudmouth has not replied
 Message 71 by custard, posted 03-02-2005 11:56 AM Loudmouth has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 111 (189802)
03-03-2005 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Hangdawg13
03-03-2005 12:23 AM


quote:
I think a perfectly agnostic person when asked "Does God exist?" would say "I don't know and I cannot say one way or another."
This has been stated by me and others and I would like to expand on it a little. When I say that I "don't know" I am saying that I can't tell the difference between a genuine religious experience and something my mind is just making up. Some people, such as yourself, put faith in these experiences. They believe that they can tell the difference. This is perhaps the biggest difference that I see between theists and agnostics.
quote:
Well, if we were all perfectly logical machines then that's how it would be, but other things factor into our thoughts.
I will be the last one to claim that humans are perfectly logical machines. I also think it is a good thing that we are not machines. Theology and philosophy have shaped our history as a species, both of which can be quite illogical and irrational at times.
quote:
The pending existence of God is pretty dang important. I mean if God is the only reason for living and there is an afterlife then the question of his existence is really the most important of life.
I gave up on an afterlife a long time ago, so the "pending existence" really isn't that important. What is important is the one life I am guarateed, the one I am experiencing now. I can't think of a way to express it, but there seems to be a difference in how one approaches life with these two opposing viewpoints (ie belief or non-belief in an afterlife). Maybe if I fart out some evil demons my thought processes will clear up (this is a little inside joke here at EvC, so don't worry if you don't get it).
quote:
Most agnostics would tend to say, "I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty darn sure God doesn't exist," and then equate God to something absurd because it feels better and is more reassuring to think that you are right rather than to think that you don't know.
I see just the opposite hapenning. I see theists who need to believe in a god because it makes them feel better and more reassured about their place in the world. As Schraf says, the sword cuts both ways on this one. I often hear people proclaim that after their religious conversion they felt "a weight lifted off their shoulders" or "an inner peace that I had never felt before". It would seem to me that religion has soothed the savage breast for quite some time within human societies. We even have adages such as "there are no atheists in foxholes" that portray this sentiment. I think we all tend to go with what makes us feel best. For some it is more emotional and for some it is more intellectual. I don't think one is better than the other, but they can have different outcomes.
quote:
Some would say that solid evidence for God must be presented to even entertain the idea of God and since no such evidence exists God is a non issue. IMO, since this conatains a judgement that God (whatever that might be) probably doesn't exist this can be called weak atheism expressed in a scientific worldview vocabulary.
I wouldn't say it is "scientific worldview vocabulary", at least it isn't with me. I have entertained the idea of God, but without evidence that would rule out my own mind playing tricks it is impossible for me to trust my mind. This is a philosophy, not a science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Hangdawg13, posted 03-03-2005 12:23 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Hangdawg13, posted 03-03-2005 7:50 PM Loudmouth has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 111 (190057)
03-04-2005 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Hangdawg13
03-03-2005 7:50 PM


quote:
I've actually never had a "religious experience". I have become emotional on occasion when I contemplate the depth of the meaning of my beliefs, but I cannot be sure that I've ever had anything happen to me that I would call supernatural.
I consider those emotions as "religious experience". Sorry, should have defined my terms a little better.
quote:
It is not an issue with you BECAUSE you disbelieve in an afterlife. However, if you were genuinely completely neutral as an agnostic and equally doubtful of both then it might tend to push you out of neutral towards either belief so that you could believe that you were going to have the good afterlife or towards nonbelief so that you could believe that you would not experience anything.
True. I can't distinguish between the existence of an after life and unfounded hope. Therefore they are one in the same. I am only guaranteed one life, the one I am experiencing now. All other possibilities pale in comparison to what I am experiencing now. When I say I "gave up on an afterlife" I meant that it is not a gaurantee so I plan otherwise.
quote:
No doubt. Most humans need religion. My belief in Christ allows me to be at peace and happy in any situation.
I hope that you are taking this in the way it is given. I am not looking down on you or claiming that religion is for dullards. That being said, this is the problem that I have with religion and theism. I can't separate the human emotional need from the possible existence. The two don't seem to be independent. This is exactly what I am talking about when I say that I can't tell if my mind is fooling me into feeling something that isn't there.
quote:
So what do you classify yourself again? I would classify you a weak atheist because you reject the idea of God, but that could change if you had a real reason to believe.
I don't reject the idea of a deity. I just can't independently verify the existence of a deity outside of my own subjective emotions. I distrust myself more than I disbelieve in the existence of God. Because of this distrust I put God into the same folder with alien UFO sightings and alien abductions, both of which can be products of a wild imagination mixed in with emotion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Hangdawg13, posted 03-03-2005 7:50 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 111 (190068)
03-04-2005 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Monk
03-04-2005 1:54 PM


quote:
I'm not an atheist so it is difficult for me to present that point of view, but it would seem to me that's a bit of a stretch.
The bridge between atheism and theism is probably Deism. In Deism, the theology is that there was a creator god who started the universe and life then just stepped away from it. The deist Creator God had no involvement with the universe after it's initial formation. While a Deist accepts the existence of God they do not look for a relationship with God. If there is weak atheism, I guess Deism could be categorized as weak theism.
quote:
IMHO an intelligent designer devoid of morality is still a supernatural being that is not any more palatable to atheist than a moral God.
An intelligent designer could still be natural, such as aliens or time-traveling humans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Monk, posted 03-04-2005 1:54 PM Monk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Monk, posted 03-04-2005 2:41 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
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