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Author Topic:   How do we define a "new" species.
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 49 (180566)
01-25-2005 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Loudmouth
01-18-2005 11:38 AM


Loudmouth writes:
Species are defined by a group that interbreed
I read that dogs and wolves can interbreed. Why are they considered different species?
Also, can you shed any light on the peculiarity of the sterile mule?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Loudmouth, posted 01-18-2005 11:38 AM Loudmouth has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Jazzns, posted 01-25-2005 6:35 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 20 by NosyNed, posted 01-25-2005 6:46 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 49 (180848)
01-26-2005 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by NosyNed
01-25-2005 6:46 PM


Re: can or do breed
Ned writes:
We probably separate dogs off because of non breeding reasons and because we are interested in them.
I thought there might be some more technical reason--some physical difference. A wolf looks exactly like a dog to me.
As regards the mule, I thought this was a special case. That donkeys and horses breed and produce this sterile blend. I assume donkeys and horses are different species?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by NosyNed, posted 01-25-2005 6:46 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by NosyNed, posted 01-26-2005 3:34 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 29 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-26-2005 3:35 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 49 (180864)
01-26-2005 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by pink sasquatch
01-26-2005 3:35 PM


Re: can or do breed
Pink Sasquatch writes:
could never produce offspring due to DNA-level reproductively incompatibilities.
Yeah, what I am trying to figure out is if there is some physical reason why two species can't breed--like a chemical reason or something.
So I guess the mule is just a famous case. Why are they sterile?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-26-2005 3:35 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-26-2005 3:52 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 49 (180873)
01-26-2005 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by pink sasquatch
01-26-2005 3:52 PM


Re: can or do breed
I got it.
Can we then say the following?:
A "species" can be defined as an isolated gene pool---not isolated by some external factor, such as locale, but isolated because its DNA is not compatible with any other DNA. There are a few cases--such as wolves and dogs--which are accorded separate species-status more for traditional, cultural reasons rather than DNA incompatibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-26-2005 3:52 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 01-26-2005 4:56 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 35 by Loudmouth, posted 01-26-2005 5:07 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 49 (180901)
01-26-2005 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Loudmouth
01-26-2005 5:07 PM


Re: can or do breed
Loudmouth writes:
Gene isolation is gene isolation, no matter the reason. It is not a question of "if they can" but "do they". There are many reasons that separate species may not interbreed, one of which is DNA incompatibilities. Others may include sexual selection, physical incompatibility, egg/sperm recognition, and hybrid sterility.
I was thinking that geographical isolation has nothing to do with it. You got a bunch of deer over here in the Northwest and another bunch of the same deer in the Northeast, and they never get together. Nonetheless they are the same species. (later, of course, much later, this situation might change--they evolve differently).
As regards physical compatibility, I suppose you mean something like big dog/little dog. But they are the same species.
There seem to be some exceptions. Hard to pin it down. I don't understand why DNA incompatibility would not be the deciding factor. Surely there are no cases where you have creatures that don't look alike having DNA compatibilities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Loudmouth, posted 01-26-2005 5:07 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by robinrohan, posted 01-26-2005 5:46 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 40 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-26-2005 6:34 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 46 by Loudmouth, posted 01-27-2005 12:16 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 49 (180919)
01-26-2005 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by robinrohan
01-26-2005 5:20 PM


Re: can or do breed
Robin writes:
Surely there are no cases where you have creatures that don't look alike having DNA compatibilities.
You're such an idiot. You just mentioned big dogs/little dogs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by robinrohan, posted 01-26-2005 5:20 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by robinrohan, posted 01-26-2005 8:08 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 49 (180949)
01-26-2005 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by robinrohan
01-26-2005 5:46 PM


Re: can or do breed
Robin writes:
You're such an idiot.
I beg your pardon?
If you meant that as a joke, you should have put a little smily face.
If you did not mean it as a joke, well then you--you of all people--should not be making a comment like that.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black . . .
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-26-2005 19:08 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by robinrohan, posted 01-26-2005 5:46 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 49 (180950)
01-26-2005 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by robinrohan
01-26-2005 8:08 PM


Re: can or do breed
Robin writes:
If you meant that as a joke, you should have put a little smily face.
You literal-minded jackass! Were you raised in a barn?
Don't you understand that it is possible for a comment to be both serious and comic at the same time?
It is possible to be serious without being solemn.
If I put that smily face down, it would destroy any ironic comment I make. I will try to make it easy for you, duncehead. I will make the irony VERY OBVIOUS--okay?
I know, there is a difference between the Internet and talking to someone face to face. I understand that you cannot detect the tenor of the person's voice on the Internet. But neither can you with a book!
God, you make me sick!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by robinrohan, posted 01-26-2005 8:08 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by AdminJar, posted 01-26-2005 8:35 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
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