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Author
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Topic: Belief...a choice?
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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days) Posts: 272 From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco Joined: 06-21-2003
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Message 18 of 113 (162781)
11-23-2004 9:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by LinearAq
11-22-2004 11:16 AM
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LinearAq writes: Then he goes on to give the impression that to believe something, all you have to do is choose to believe it. I say that is an incorrect statement. You cannot believe something without some rationalization. For example: I cannot choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 5, no matter how hard I try. I may be tortured enough, as in Orwell's "1984", but I don't see how I could make myself believe something like that without appropriate evidence. The problem here is that you're comparing something like 2+2=4 with the existence of God or the big bang. 2+2=4 is empirical verifiable data, God and the big bang arent. So you CHOOSE to believe in either God or the big bang by the way you interpret the different pieces of clues found in nature.
Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by LinearAq, posted 11-22-2004 11:16 AM | | LinearAq has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 19 by NosyNed, posted 11-23-2004 9:48 PM | | Itachi Uchiha has not replied | | | Message 23 by LinearAq, posted 11-24-2004 9:17 AM | | Itachi Uchiha has replied |
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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days) Posts: 272 From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco Joined: 06-21-2003
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Message 32 of 113 (163044)
11-24-2004 9:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 23 by LinearAq
11-24-2004 9:17 AM
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Re: Are we on topic?
LinearAq writes: Is it either/or? Why can't God have caused the Big Bang, a la portions of "The Case for a Creator"? Besides, you say we choose to believe. Ok...why did you choose to believe as you do? Ok my bad for not including that option. It just didn't come to mind. I choose to believe in what I believe because there is where my hart takes me. I'm not going to go into details on this because its off topic.
Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by LinearAq, posted 11-24-2004 9:17 AM | | LinearAq has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 33 by berberry, posted 11-24-2004 9:41 PM | | Itachi Uchiha has not replied | | | Message 34 by LinearAq, posted 11-24-2004 11:23 PM | | Itachi Uchiha has replied |
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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days) Posts: 272 From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco Joined: 06-21-2003
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Message 35 of 113 (163196)
11-25-2004 11:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 34 by LinearAq
11-24-2004 11:23 PM
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Re: Basis of belief....
Well if you insist, I'll tell you why I believe in what I believe. My own personal spiritual experiences with God are the ones that have the hardest pull when you take all the different facts about the existence or non existence of God. And other historical facts like evidence of the existence of Jesus and the other apostles, remains of the solomon temple, among others which make me point towards the existence of God. You come to the question Where all of them really who they said they were or are they all crazy? All of them believed in the same God so they were all crazy or they were all right.
Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by LinearAq, posted 11-24-2004 11:23 PM | | LinearAq has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 36 by Morte, posted 11-25-2004 7:11 PM | | Itachi Uchiha has replied | | | Message 39 by LinearAq, posted 11-26-2004 3:36 PM | | Itachi Uchiha has replied |
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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days) Posts: 272 From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco Joined: 06-21-2003
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Message 37 of 113 (163324)
11-26-2004 11:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 36 by Morte
11-25-2004 7:11 PM
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Re: Logical jump?
Morte writes: just wanted to point out that this statement seems to be pretty broad analysis and implies an extreme either/or situation where there is none (akin to saying that disproving evolution proves creation). No no that was not my intention. I was only talking about the existence of God without taking into account evolution or creation.
Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by Morte, posted 11-25-2004 7:11 PM | | Morte has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 38 by Morte, posted 11-26-2004 12:29 PM | | Itachi Uchiha has not replied |
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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days) Posts: 272 From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco Joined: 06-21-2003
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Message 40 of 113 (163490)
11-27-2004 12:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 39 by LinearAq
11-26-2004 3:36 PM
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Re: Basis of belief....
LinearAq writes: Your "spiritual experiences" and "all the different facts..." caused you to be conviced of God's existence or that Christianity is the right religion or both. You did not just choose to believe. The evidence was strong enough, for you, to instill belief. Yes those are things that motivate me to believe the same way you have your own reasons that make you an atheist or skeptic (I suppose) but still you have to make a choice. Its like having two versions of a particular story and have evidence that favor and go against both at the same time. All you have to do is choose which of the two versions youre gonna go with.
LinearAq writes: Not necessarily and either/or situation...there may be a third choice. Perhaps they were deceived, for example. If that was the case then I'd have to ask. Decieved by who?
Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by LinearAq, posted 11-26-2004 3:36 PM | | LinearAq has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 41 by LinearAq, posted 11-27-2004 11:33 PM | | Itachi Uchiha has replied |
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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days) Posts: 272 From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco Joined: 06-21-2003
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Message 62 of 113 (164008)
11-29-2004 10:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 41 by LinearAq
11-27-2004 11:33 PM
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Re: Basis of belief....
LinearAq writes: Then you don't concern yourself with the validity of the evidence? Perhaps you just assumed that the evidence was valid when it supported BibleGod belief and invalid when it did not. Actually I do concern myself with the validity of the evidence. The problem is that in the origins debate nobody saw creation nor the big bang. So we are then left with pieces of a puzzle. The validity of the evidence for me is proof. Repetable empirical data which for me points in the direction of God but fo others it seems it points to the big bang. evidence is evidence and the truth is the truth whether it supports God or not. Who am I to say that a particular piece of evidence is valid or not? No my friend i am not saying that at all. I leave that to the research and the lab tests and of course I have a brain (the same way you do too) which is capable of studying and examining the resuslts which will lead you to a conclusion.
LinearAq writes: By saying that belief is a choice then you are saying that no amount of information refuting your belief will change your mind about it as long as you choose to believe it. Then you can choose to believe that 2+2=5 despite all evidence against it. I don't have that capability. I can't just believe something because someone tells me that it is the right thing to believe. I dont have it either. All I'm saying is that we have to be very careful. You will find a lot of 2+2=5 in the matters of faith in God (which is another topic in itself) as well as evolution.
Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by LinearAq, posted 11-27-2004 11:33 PM | | LinearAq has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 64 by LinearAq, posted 11-30-2004 7:12 AM | | Itachi Uchiha has replied | | | Message 84 by nator, posted 12-01-2004 7:52 AM | | Itachi Uchiha has replied |
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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days) Posts: 272 From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco Joined: 06-21-2003
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Message 76 of 113 (164224)
11-30-2004 11:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 64 by LinearAq
11-30-2004 7:12 AM
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Re: Basis of belief....
LinearAq writes: I know it's off topic but I'm curious. Do you subscribe to the Young Earth theories of creationism? Yes I do.
LinearAq writes: It seems that we agree on belief in that it cannot really be a choice. Rather it is something that grows out of evidence, experience and teaching. Yes. It appears that we agree.
Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by LinearAq, posted 11-30-2004 7:12 AM | | LinearAq has not replied |
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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days) Posts: 272 From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco Joined: 06-21-2003
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Message 107 of 113 (165131)
12-04-2004 12:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 84 by nator
12-01-2004 7:52 AM
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Re: Basis of belief....
schrafinator writes: What does this mean? I don't find any "2+2=5" in matters of science at all. I guess then that transitional fossils are not part of science. Go check out the tread.
Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by nator, posted 12-01-2004 7:52 AM | | nator has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 109 by LinearAq, posted 12-10-2004 10:49 AM | | Itachi Uchiha has not replied |
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