A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all)

Again, sorry for straying, but when one speaks to another face to face, you don't always stay directly on topic either.

jazzlover_PR I must disagree on the strange shadows and spiritual nature stuff.I do agree that I have felt deep emotions but how is this a mystery since it is our brains that produce the emotions we feel. I must again disagree with you since I do not believe in evolution nor atheism. I doubt them both,however,I doubt them to a far lesser degree than any other stance since the evidence of the world is what is measured by our meager minds and that evidence sides with both of these.Our brains are complex and our motives far more so.We fool ourselves frequently when we do not apply critical thinking skills.To be honest within ourselves is far more difficult than most would think and the evidence of our senses is not necesssarily reliable.Exaggeration and even lies are not uncommon and our social interactions and ego further complicate our search for clarity.It is far more likely that god is an invention of wishful thinking to help deal with the hard actualities of life than it is an actual entity.It is telling that the god of any given religion requires belief before revealing itself unlike the universe itself which reveals itself when we study it to see what is there. Yet god refuses to reveal himself as though that would invalidate what a person held in their heart.On a personal note I have never been given the choice because I have never known whether a choice exists or not. So how would you know this to be so? Are you privy to knowing what god thinks or looks at? Indeed can you even explain what you mean by "the hearts of men"? I really would like to hear what you have to say on this.Perhaps you could start a new topic so that we do not derail this thread any further OK?This message has been edited by sidelined, 11-20-2004 02:05 PM

But God is everywhere, and if you look for Him, you can find Him no matter who you are. For example, I find God in places of undisturbed nature and in animals.

I see no evidence of Zeus in nature.

TheClashFanWhat evidence do you have for this statement? Please give an example of such.

Added the "(re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all)" part.IMO, titles such as "A question for Athiests/Evolutionists." should not pass the proposed new topics review. They need to be changed before the topic is promoted.This admin message is, of course, off-topic.Please make any responses to the "Considerations of..." topic, link below.Adminnemooseus

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"led astray" implies influence, perhaps of data? or memes?For example the allegations that Iraq was a threat because it possessed WMD influenced Senators to vote to authorize military action. Iraq had possessed these weapons in sufficient quanitity to be a threat in previous decades, they had been obstructing as much as they could the UN inspectors. However, most believed rightly that they had no offensive capablities (possession of quantities of sarin to little to be a threat doesn't count). So did demons suggest this idea as a way to create war? What about the arguments by those who pointed to the current state of Iraq in virtue of the sanctions and inspections that WPD were not a threat. The thing is here is an example of ideas that have an effect in the real world.Feelings and sensations are subjective and can influence perception. Sometimes a mood or too much caffeine results in my experiencing a mild anxiety. One form that takes is after leaving my house a part of my brain suggests I haven't turned off the stove, another part argues I been back and forth in the kitchen no burners were emitting heat. The other part insists I should return. It's a mild obsession that eventually evaporates as I get active. I believe this belief in demons is a hold over from prescientific times when it was an explanation for the brain and malfunctions of the brain, or unexplained natural activities that seemed unnatural like ball lighting.I believe the churches promulgating this view now a days do it for power and influence over their members. After the movie the Excorcist there was even a small business boom in excorcisms. The current hypnotism for buried memories of abuse or alien abduction is the same sort of thing. And if you are exposed to people who believe these things the mind can get active along those lines. There are well documented studies and undocumented anecdotes of perceptual changes due to brain and hormones. Adrenlin can affect perception. If those happens in a climate of belief in entities then you have a bit of a positive feed forward. The beliefs increase anxiety or arousal resulting in more perceptual alterations resulting in stronger beliefs and around it goes.To accept a demonic theory of hallucinations means explaining how tranquillizers and anti psychotics drive out demons and do so far more reliablity than excorcising them in the name of a deity.I believe that in a modern country for a church to advocate belief in demons is irresponsible propagandizing to maintain power that can be harmful in the sense that it increases anxiety in sensitive people. They should be using something like rational emotive therapy to help people deal with anxieties or stress in a functional manner and not be using methods that will increase church attendance at the cost of the well being of their members.lfen

The topic seems to be wandering into questions for Clash again. Are you ok with this, Clash?

You best pray you are never caught out in a thunder storm. You might receive evidence of an extremely shocking nature, infidel!lfen

It's a line I use with door-knockers."Do you believe in God?""No I don't believe in Thor, sorry!"Many christians seems to think that it's a straight "atheists oppose the christian god" - for most of us the starting question is not "god - Real or not?" it's "God? - which one?"

It's a good line.There doesn't seem to be much input here from Jews, or Muslims. I try to represent some aspects of eastern thought as that is what interests me but I am not a formal member of any religion and can't really give an orthodox view.Christianity dominated Europe for such a long time. With the Renaissance the rational element of Greek thought re emerged and developed into science. At least that is my view point. The tensions on this forum between evo and creo view points reflects a very long standing tension in european culture. For centuries the church dominated and is still a very major force in culture. And, to tie this discussion back into the topic, hence we find belief in demons and unseen immaterial forces still being seriously held in a society that has developed brain scans and quantum mechanics.The tension continues.lfen

True, but the people who developed brain scans and quantum physics aren't the same ones who spread ideas about demons, and the two groups aren't really comparable. Seeing as I've volunteered in the radiology department of a local hospital, I'm inclined to think that the people who work on such scientific matters do a lot more good than exorcists do.I think that if people in the United States were better educated about science there would be less of a problem with it and fewer people retreating to supernatural ideas about demons. It isn't completely teachers' fault though, education seems to be of a low priority to our government and is terribly underfunded, especially in poor communities. That is a shame too, because education should be the most important duty of a government to its people, and if people cared more about it we'd have a much better society.

Its difficult to explain but I will try. When I see a place untouched by men, I see the beauty and purity of God's love and dedication. When I see animals in their wild and natural state, I see His attention to detail. Its really metophoric, I should say. I don't really see His face, but I see a form of Him.

Yes, I was saying that demons influence people even when they do not know it. Have you ever wondered where humans can get such ideas of hatred or evil? How a man can kill another man just because of the color of his skin, or how a man could kill an animal for no reason? How a man could torture an innocent creature, or destroy property only for the sake of chaos? Those who do those things are influenced by demons, as I belive. What do you think causes a man to do those things without reason?

I haven't yet read the 43 posts so sorry if I'm repeating what's already been said. I can't believe in something just because it would be nice if it existed. I lack belief in a god due to a complete lack of evidence that one exists as far as i'm concerned. There is little comfort in pretending something exists when I know full well that I do not believe it. Why would I fool myself like that?