Existence of Noah's Ark

more what? any form of actual rebuttal of other's views?

In the pre flood/post flood world change you describe it makes me wonder why God really choose Noah and his family. To cope with this extinction event and a completely different world, they obviously were exceptional folks. Massive terrain changes and alot less "breathable water" in the air. Forget holy, Noah needed to be muscularly rugged and capable of breathing lightly moist air. Coming to rest on a mountain must have been a particular shock to someone used to a relatively flat surface. I'm glad they managed to get the animals and themselves down safely It may have been shocking to Noah and the land animals but at least the new, improved deeper oceans gave the whales and giant squids a bit more room to move about.thanx
PM1K

I hope you too realize that I am not claiming that the earth remained flooded after the rain stopped.

Instead of asserting, do the math, why don't you?PE=mgh.
g=9.8 m/s
m=1 kg (a sample)
h=~50 meters
490 joules
Specific heat of water=4186 joules/kg
Q=c*m*dT
490=4186*1*dT
dT=4186/490
~0.11 degrees celcius***HOWEVER***Rivers always - and especially in freefall - exchange significant amounts of heat to the atmosphere. In fact, waterfalls often have a net *cooling* effect on the water (with a net heating effect on the atmosphere) due to this. The greater the cross-section of the waterfall and the lower the volume, the more heat will be lost (because the water tends to break into smaller droplets with more surface area). Very tall waterfalls often barely impact the ground, having lost much of their water to the atmosphere during the drop (for example, Angel Falls).In industry, cooling towers are often used, by having a heated liquid have water flow by it to cool it down, and having the heated water then be dropped from a height and collected at the bottom.The heat dissipation is not the case, as I'm sure you can see, for a global flood. Namely, because the atmosphere can't dissipate the heat that the water gives it.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Ok, then if it is a mis-reading, is it possible that the ark could have wound up at the base of those mountains, which I think is the black sea?Then the bible would still be correct? If we found the ark there?

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I hope you too realize that I amnot claiming that the earth remained flooded after the rain stopped

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Yeah... because that would mean that you believe literally in the bible.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

I don't know. I am not an expert at translating the bible. It could have wound up the base of the mountain.You do realize, I only want to talk about flooding and get to what happened to the ark later. Ok from the very begining, Isaid I do not know what would cause this. That would be the next step. I have some ideas, but I need the help of you guys again to sort them out.I am only trying to figure out if all life would be destroyed in this situation, and it all land would be covered with water (To no certain depth). Then we can discuss what Noah saw. I guess I have to explain it to you too. It would not be there if it stopped raining. I just figured that it was so obvious, I wouldn't really have to say that.What I can't believe is that you guys thought, that I thought that. lmao. I give you guys an A+ for thinking that and still talked to me.
Thats so funny, I was laughing all day, when I realized what you guys thought.
Wow, I mean just wow.His IQ is 129 but he thinks water can defy the laws of gravity.
lol, lol. This kind of helps my hypothesis out a little. Because I feel a great deal of heat would be needed to generate such a evaporation, and condesing of water. The heat would also need to be in the oceans, and the lands would have to be cool.
This is where you come in. You could figure this out, if it is possible, or what it would take for something like this to happen. I fully understand what they are, and what can create them.
Are you saying that the rainfall I am talking about would create them?
Or would it just create landslides that would cause them? Lets see, if the flood happened the way I am saying, the sediment would be lostly washed out to the oceans, and plains. I guess by studying the sediment, we could see if this was possible.
I also suppose this has been done already? This may very well prove my thought wrong. I don't know. Have we ever dug for fossils in the ocean?I guess the kind of flooding I am talking about would mix up the layers. Maybe the only way to really see is to simulate it?Mud slides happen all the time, we never see mixing of fossil layers in these areas of the world. Places like Honduras, where hurricanes like Mitch wiped out entire villages with 8 feet of mud? That was some serious rainfall. Right if they can't get back up the river the next spring.
But I see what your saying.
I don't know how they could have survived. Doesn't seem likely.But then again life sometimes surprises us.
I know, don't say it.

You'd be next after that.
I'm talking about making the same mistakes as me, and also being a hypocrite.Which is fine with me, I am a forgiving person, and wouldn't think less of him or you if you did. It does make for a good laugh though.

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Originally posted by riVeRraT

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Ok, then if it is a mis-reading, is it possible that the ark could have wound up at the base of those mountains, which I think is the black sea?

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Yes, IMO, it could have wound up at the base of those mountains. However, mountains rarely stick up out of flat ground like mushrooms. Rather, there are elevated peaks along a range or ridgeline. So Rei is almost certainly correct in that it would still be a higher elevation than the starting point.I'm not sure what you mean by "(you) think it is the Black Sea". As far as I know, there is no indication that the Black Sea ever extended into Armenia.Also, I don't know what the Black Sea would have to do with your rain/water-sluice hypothesis. The Black Sea premise is that at the end of the last ice age, rising ocean levels swelled the Mediterranean Sea until the force of the water breached through into the Bosphorus valley. This flood of salt/sea water flowed into what was then a fresh water lake, significantly increasing its volume and salinity. Thus creating what is now called the Black Sea. In the map above, in the upper right-hand corner of the Mediterranean Sea, you can see the Bosphorus strait connecting the Mediterranean to the Black Sea. This is where the water is thought to have breached into the (then) freshwater lake.The Ararat mountain range is in Armenia (also shown on the above map). Mt. Ararat itself is located just below the arrowhead pointing into Armenia.I hope this helps you some, but again, you are juggling so many mutually incompatible speculations it is difficult to decide just what you are trying to accomplish.Amlodhi

The bible says the waters stuck around for 150 days. so you're contradicting the bible. Furthermore, you keep skipping over the fact that the water in valleys will be moving at hundreds of miles per hour toward the sea (and the more water you put on it, the faster it moves). I've given you the formula several times; in case you need it again, it is v=sqrt(m*g*d)Concerning megatsunamis: Can you not see the fact that dumping billions of metric tons of water on mountainsides is the same as if billions of metric tons of rock collapsed, in terms of wave-forming ability?

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Lets see, if the flood happened the way I am saying, the sediment would be lostly washed out to the oceans, and plains. I guess by studying the sediment, we could see if this was possible.

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And, I already mentioned that fossils are sorted without regard to size, shape, density, etc. Furthermore, there are miles of sediment in places onland. Sorry.

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This may very well prove my thought wrong. I don't know. Have we ever dug for fossils in the ocean?

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Of course. People have dug for fossils everywhere.

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I guess the kind of flooding I am talking about would mix up the layers. Maybe the only way to really see is to simulate it?

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Nah. Even minor floods mix up surface layers like crazy.

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Mud slides happen all the time, we never see mixing of fossil layers in these areas of the world. Places like Honduras, where hurricanes like Mitch wiped out entire villages with 8 feet of mud? That was some serious rainfall.

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And those 8 feet of mud are highly scrambled. In the fossil record, mudslides generally come across as a single layer..Most of the rest of things seemed to be "I don't know", so I don't think I need to bother responding to them. I already did the calculations on how much heat would be released on rainfall - from only 100 meters of altitude, 1 cm/sec of rainfall releases as much energy as 10 100 watt lightbulbs in every square meter, with nowhere for the energy to go. It's like wrapping a space heater in a blanket, except even worse (a blanket isn't nearly as insulating as a huge canopy of water vaper hovering over the entire earth).

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

buzsaw responds to me:

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But it isn't. Mt. Everest is five miles tall, has been that tall for quite some time, and will remain that tall long after we are gone assuming nothing blows it up.

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But none of us was there so nobody knows exactly how long it's been that tall.

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Incorrect.We have a very good idea how long it's been that tall. You see, it's getting taller every day as the Indian subcontinent continues to push into the Asiatic plate. If I recall correctly, it's on the order of a few centimeters per year.Plus, we have the historical evidence of those living around it. Nobody seemed to notice a mountain springing up overnight.

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If the planet's surface were relatively level, the earth would be flooded twice a day as the tides covered it over. Since that doesn't happen, then it is apparent to all but the most casual observer that it is topologically impossible to cover the earth with water.

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Note my hypothesis that there was much more water in the atmosphere then to create the vapor canopy and there were much smaller shallower oceans on earth.

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And as you were shown, that requires the temperature and pressure of the atmosphere to be well above that which a human body can stand. Thousands of atmospheres of pressure and hundreds of degrees centigrade.In other words, you think the pre-flood Earth was like present-day Venus. You do know that we have the damnedest time getting a probe to land on Venus because they keep melting on the way down and getting crushed from the pressure, yes?That is what putting all that water into the Earth's atmosphere would do. Noah would be boiled in his own skin which would burst into flame as the fat fried from the inside.You haven't thought this through at all. It is not enough to simply say, "More water vapor in the air." Air can only hold so much water vapor at earthly temperatures and pressures. You want to increase that amount by thousands upon thousands of times. The only way to do that is to increase the temperature and pressure to the point where human life could not exist."Common sense" your way through that: What would the temperature and pressure of the Earth's atmosphere have to be in order to suspend 10⁹ cubic miles of water in it?But in the end, it is irrelevant. You're still thinking of this as a physics question and it is a topography question. Water flows downhill until it reaches the lowest point. 97% of the Earth's water is at the lowest point: The oceans. And yet despite that, there is still dry land. In order to flood the earth, you need to put water above sea level. You obviously can't use the water from the oceans to do this because the ocean level is what defines sea level. Take water away from the ocean and you lower sea level, thus requiring even more water to flood the land.It wouldn't matter if the only dry land on the Earth were a small stump one square inch in surface area and only one inch above the sea level. It is above sea level and thus there isn't enough water to flood the earth or it would be flooded already.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

buzsaw writes:

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I know you're gona come up with the atmospheric pressure and all, but imo, the atmosphere was likely much higher with less density per sq in then.

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I'm reminded of the old brainteaser:Which weighs more: A pound of feathers or a pound of lead?Which has more pressure: A column of air weighing one metric ton in a column one square meter in cross section and one kilometer tall or a column of air weighing one metric ton in a column one square meter in cross section and ten kilometers tall?One of the things you learn in Chemistry is that liquids are, for the most part, incompressible. Unlike gases, if you have a container filled with liquid water, you cannot force more water into it.And yet, the further you go down in the ocean, the higher the pressure gets. Why do you think that might be?Hints: How much water is above you when you're at the surface? How much water is above you when you're 50 meters down? How much do you think that column of water sitting on your shoulders weighs? What might that mean with regard to pressure?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT writes:

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I hope you too realize that I am not claiming that the earth remained flooded after the rain stopped.

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Then you're not talking about a flood. You're talking about a storm. There is plenty of water on earth to moisten the surface, but that isn't a flood. A flood is when a sizeable shell of water lies upon what is normally dry land.Thus, you have contradicted your own statement that the earth was flooded.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I own a HVAC busineses, and full aware of cooling towers purpose and function.I wasn't aware that the atmosphere could not displace the amount of heat generted.
But, if something was heating the oceans to that degree, wouldn't the moisture be carried further up in the atmosphere, placing it closer to space where it could be cooled more?

One step at a time please.
*edit*
I never claimed in these forums to believe the bible word for word.
However all of you have assumed that.
I do believe the bible contains the word of God, and is the way to salvation.
I am a realist.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 10-01-2004 08:25 AM