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Author Topic:   Genesis 1 vs. Genesis 2
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 149 (146036)
09-30-2004 12:28 PM


From the thread entitled: "A question that was first presented by Socrates", we developed a new thread concerning the apparently conflicting accounts of creation.
jar writes:
"There are definitely two different tales told in Genesis 1&2. Not only are the orders different, the methods are different. It is not a case of things being created again, it is that the two descriptions are mutually exclusive. In one, everything is created from non-living matter, dirt. In the other, woman is cloned from an existing living critter, man. In one, male and female are created at one time and the number of each is unspecified. In the other, there is only one man and one woman and they are created at different times. In one, man and woman are created before the animals. In the other, man is created first, then all the animals, and finally the woman."
Genesis 1:26-27 says:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
The verses above state generally that he created them.
Genesis 2:7 says:
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The verse above gives specific details about man was created.
Genesis 2:21-24 says:
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
These verses above give the details concerning Eve's creation.
Is it easier for you to think that the author contradicts himself in the very next chapter than to consider that you may have interpreted it incorrectly?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2004 1:00 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 4 by Adminnemooseus, posted 09-30-2004 1:30 PM dpardo has not replied
 Message 23 by jar, posted 09-30-2004 9:15 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 24 by arachnophilia, posted 09-30-2004 9:25 PM dpardo has replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 149 (146084)
09-30-2004 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by PaulK
09-30-2004 1:00 PM


PaulK writes:
"Just a question, do you accept that Genesis 1:20 describes the creation of birds on the 4th day ? And that 1:26-27 describing the creation of man are placed in the 5th day ?"
Did you mean to say 5th day and 6th day, respectively?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2004 1:00 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2004 1:46 PM dpardo has replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 149 (146105)
09-30-2004 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by PaulK
09-30-2004 1:46 PM


PaulK writes:
"To avoid worrying about matters that are essentially irrelevant I'll amend the question to whether you accept that Genesis 1 places the creation of birds on the day preceding the creation of Man."
Yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2004 1:46 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2004 2:00 PM dpardo has replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 149 (146115)
09-30-2004 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by PaulK
09-30-2004 2:00 PM


PaulK writes:
"OK. What about Genesis 2:18-19 ? Doesn't that put the creation of birds after that of Man ?"
Genesis 2:19 states:
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
I realize that the verse above seems to be stating what you assert, if you are looking at it from the perspective that it contradicts -for what purpose, I don't know.
If you look at the verse from the perspective that it cannot contradict, then the same verse can be read without incorporating a new chronology into it.
Genesis 1 has already given us the chronology. What is the purpose of interpreting it in such a way that it would be contradictory?
Edit: Inserted a comma.
This message has been edited by dpardo, 09-30-2004 01:16 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2004 2:00 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by NosyNed, posted 09-30-2004 2:29 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 14 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-30-2004 2:48 PM dpardo has not replied
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2004 2:58 PM dpardo has replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 149 (146121)
09-30-2004 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by NosyNed
09-30-2004 2:29 PM


Re: amazing!
NosyNed writes:
"Then when there is an obvious clear contradiction"
This is subjective, as you have probably already noticed.
"I actually, believe it or not, never realized that this was the mind set of literalists before!!
You may be generalizing here.
"A totally circular chain of reasoning that is so screamingly obviously falacious that I just never managed to see it before."
Is this your conclusion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by NosyNed, posted 09-30-2004 2:29 PM NosyNed has not replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 149 (146124)
09-30-2004 2:41 PM


If I am presented with a book that is claimed, by some, to be inerrant, should I automatically assume that it isn't and look for contradictions.
Or, should I read it, and when I see an apparent contradiction, study it, ask questions, and make sure I interpreted it correctly?

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Brian, posted 09-30-2004 2:45 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 26 by Rrhain, posted 10-01-2004 4:27 AM dpardo has replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 149 (146129)
09-30-2004 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Brian
09-30-2004 2:45 PM


Hi Brian,
You have probably already heard this but...
First and foremost, you ask God (pray) to help you while reading the bible; he will. The holy spirit guides you.
Second, the material should be consistent with other parts of the bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Brian, posted 09-30-2004 2:45 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Brian, posted 09-30-2004 2:56 PM dpardo has replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 149 (146142)
09-30-2004 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by PaulK
09-30-2004 2:58 PM


Paulk,
The first time I read Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, I didn't see the apparent contradictions you mentioned.
I only realized that some people interpreted it that way when I joined this board.
I will address your questions later on today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2004 2:58 PM PaulK has not replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 149 (146147)
09-30-2004 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Brian
09-30-2004 2:56 PM


Brian,
It is nice to meet you also. I feel as if I know you somewhat from reading some of your threads.
You and WT really impress me with your insight.
I will get to your questions later on as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Brian, posted 09-30-2004 2:56 PM Brian has not replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 149 (146317)
09-30-2004 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Brian
09-30-2004 2:56 PM


Brian writes:
"Why then has the HS guided so many people to different interpretations?"
We don't know that this is actually the case.
Perhaps the problem is that people sometimes don't pray for guidance, and don't ask questions when they come across these verses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Brian, posted 09-30-2004 2:56 PM Brian has not replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 149 (146325)
09-30-2004 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by PaulK
09-30-2004 2:58 PM


PaulK writes:
"There's a reaon why I stated that I was using Genesis 2:18-19. Is there a reason why you took Genesis 2:19 out of context, omitting 2:18 even though I had specifically mentioned it ?"
Genesis 2:18 refers to Eve's creation.
"Can you show that it is reasonable to read the verses in question in a way that does not contradict without relying on the assumption that they cannot ?"
It is reasonable to avoid assigning a new chronology to Genesis 2:19 if you accept that the chronology has already been given in Genesis 1.
Have you tried reading it this way?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2004 2:58 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 10-01-2004 3:44 AM dpardo has replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 149 (146327)
09-30-2004 9:00 PM


Thanks to everybody for their responses.
I have to go off-line now but I will be back later to continue.

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 149 (146514)
10-01-2004 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
09-30-2004 9:15 PM


Hi Jar,
I saw a link to that letter on another thread awhile back.
Is it possible he could be wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 09-30-2004 9:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 10-01-2004 3:22 PM dpardo has replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 149 (146516)
10-01-2004 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by arachnophilia
09-30-2004 9:25 PM


Arachnophilia writes:
"i first assumed the general to specific idea, but it doesn't work."
It does work.
"as pointed out before, genesis 1 says that man and woman were created at one time, male and female just like god.
Genesis 1:27 says:
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
The verse above simply states that he created them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by arachnophilia, posted 09-30-2004 9:25 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Rei, posted 10-01-2004 3:18 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 39 by arachnophilia, posted 10-01-2004 6:15 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 47 by Rrhain, posted 10-02-2004 6:54 AM dpardo has replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 149 (146520)
10-01-2004 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by PaulK
10-01-2004 3:44 AM


PaulK writes:
"No, Genesis 2:18 does NOT refer to the creation of Eve. Are you incapable of reading in context ? Eve is created in Genesis 2:21-22.
Did your "Holy Spirit" tell you otherwise ?"
Genesis 2:18 does refer to the creation of Eve.
Just because Eve's creation is not mentioned until verse 22 does not mean that she was not his "help meet".
Genesis 2:18:
18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 10-01-2004 3:44 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by PaulK, posted 10-01-2004 5:37 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 43 by Amlodhi, posted 10-02-2004 12:35 AM dpardo has not replied

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