God and the human mind

Great topic Sidelined.You asked:

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Did you in anyway investigate into the possibilty of self-deception and other means of fooling yourself such as confirmation bias,wishful thinking,selective thinking,post hoc reasoning

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Thereafter followed the most astounding three pages of the usual testamonial dialogue that either completely failed to address the questions or completely confirmed your unstated premise.Some highlights:Mike the Wiz:

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There's no point, I'd still believe if I had nothing. That's the way I am. I think you could even call it an evolutionary religious trait if you want. I don't know.

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Prophex:

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Realization, realizing that my doubts were wrong, and most of the time mistakes.

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and

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Being themselves, having stronger faith.

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and

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Questioning the Bible, God's existance, logically looking at the Bible, but all of this becomes extremely useless, a waste of time...

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Chris Porteus:

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I have gone days without talking with Him but not doubting his existence. More like not being grateful. I have thought about it. Said to myself there is no God. But I could never believe that. It's just a fact for me that he exists. He's my best friend and I can't shake him. It's like I know he's there and I can't convince myself he's not. I take a wiz in the morning and as I go I try to change mindsets, can't do it. I would be living in denial. Like seeing a chair in front of you and not acknowledging it's there. It's hard to explain. But that's why I could never be convinced there is no God because he's right there to me.

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Hangdawg:

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Whatever arguments exist do not bother me because my faith does not rest on arguments. It is just that: faith. ...... Confirmation bias? It doesn't matter.

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Phatboy:

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If I were in class and involved in an experiment, I would use the critical thinking skills that you describe. To use these once I knew that God was/is with me were as innappropriate as using them on you, sidelined. I will admit reading the posts of serious atheists such as are found on Internet Infidels..It is alien thinking for me to question something as obvious as God.

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and

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It is true that I want Him to exist. Perhaps critical thinkers such as yourself would start out prefering that He did NOT exist. I see what you say about examining my faith critically. I guess that my conclusion is that I would be very uncomfortable without it.

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Way to go guys. You largely avoided answering Sidelined's questions, took yet another opportunity to preach and convey your testimonials and at the very same time confirmed the exact point Sideline was investigating: that you guys do nothing to determine whether your faith is merely self deception and actually avoid doing anything that might confirm that it is.Brilliant.Edited for typos.This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 09-09-2004 03:33 AM

Phatbot wrote:

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So? All this proves is that you value human wisdom above any religious belief.

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What it proves is that you hold your beliefs immune to any tests that would be able to ascertain the validity of those beliefs.If you don't value the methods of verifying truth that our human wisdom has developed then I challenge you to deny yourself any reliance on the result of that wisdom. The result of our human wisdom is the marvel of modern civilised society, which you rely on and take for granted everyday of your life.

Hangdawg13 wrote:

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My faith rests on the fact that life does not make sense to me without God, the fact that we exist doesn't make sense to me without God,

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If belief in a God is critical for you to make sense of life, then so be it. Continue to keep your beliefs protected by making it immune to critical thought and contrary arguments. Don't expect to convert anyone else to your faith except through appeals to emotion, and you then really have nothing to contribute to this forum other than preaching.

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...the fact that the prophets predicted Christ and his ministry,

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Prophecy has been dealt with in other threads, where I have posted this link:
Farrell Till Prophecy » Internet Infidels

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the fact that many people including two friends of mine have had "supernatural" experiences, the fact that everyone who believes and changes their life experience a happiness psychology can't imitate, and a myriad of other personal things have convinced me of the veracity of my belief in God.

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Which brings us back to the original question: Did you in anyway investigate into the possibilty of self-deception and other means of fooling yourself such as confirmation bias,wishful thinking,selective thinking,post hoc reasoning etc..?To which you finally responded:

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1) Unless I could prove to you that God exists, I cannot not prove that I am not decieving myself.
2) If God is sovereign, confirmation bias is meaningless as far as answered prayer goes.
3) If God exists, I'm being realistic in my thinking; If he doesn't I am wishfully thinking.
4) If God is the cause of reality, I am not selectively thinking; If there is no God, there is no reason for reality.
5) If God created us, I am correct in believing He is the cause; If He doesn't exist my post-hoc reasoning that we must be the result of a cause does not make sense.

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1) Not true. The reasons you believe people of other faiths are mistaken are the reasons your beliefs are also false. If you can understand how they are deceived: you can see the mechanisms that operate to decieve you.Additionally we can also test your material claims. The power of prayer? We could formulate a controlled test for that.2)What you have to show is that your results are any better than those who pray to another deity, or don't pray at all.3) Why does God operate for you in the same way as he does for those who believe in an alternate deity? Why is the life of an atheist, such as myself, immaterially different from yours? Why do all of the above seem to be affected by the same random chance opportunities, the same coincidences and the same unfortuante tribulations?Even if God exists you're being daft about your approach to him.4)If God existed, you should have a really good list of examples and evidences for him that exceed that resulting from confirmation bias,wishful thinking,selective thinking,post hoc reasoning.How would reality differ if God didn't exist?5)There would be no difference if God existed or not. You can make the same flawed assumptions whether they are based on a valid premise or not. According to you: the other religions do all the time.Replace your scenario of rationalising in light of a Christain God, with the scenario of Pretty Pink Pixies. I can apply confirmation bias,wishful thinking,selective thinking,post hoc reasoning to verfy the validity of the existence an interaction of those pixies in my life.Unless you exclude those errors in knowledge gathering you will never know if your beliefs and the "evidence" you daily use to validate those beliefs are wrong. But as you guys outlined above, it really doesn't matter.In which case, bugger off the lot of you and quit pretending you can argue for the existence of God. Blind faith belongs elsewhere.Hangdawg13 wrote:

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Don't you think if we could give you proof that God exists, that would settle the question? But we can't give you anything that would satisfy you. Therefore it is impossible to prove to another person that our beliefs in God are true.

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Of course you can. Give me something a lot more than mere blind faith. A miracle would be good, Perhaps touching the wound of Jesus. Even something logical I can trust as much as the knowledge we can gain through human wisdom. If you have nothing, admit it, be done with it and go away.Hangdawyg13 wrote:

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So there is no way to PROVE which one of us is deluding ourself in our beliefs about the existence of God.

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The deluded one is probably the one who refuses to submit his beliefs to any test, applies self-deception, confirmation bias, wishful thinking, selective thinking, post hoc reasoning and does nothing to exclude those errors and is probably the one who says they can't prove thier beliefs and has to resort to faith. The other is probably not self deluded.Hangdawg13 wrote:

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Perhaps you would tell us how you have made sure to avoid those logical fallacies listed above in your belief that there is no God? (This entails proving God does not exist) Can you do that?

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Sure.self-deception?
I have repeatably exposed myself to religious conversion processes, and sought to experience paranormal phenomena. Combined with what we know about how our brian can operate abnormally in certain circumstances I quite simply do not trust any supernatural experience that cannot be independently verifed, repeated and tested. If it can be independently verifed, repeated and tested, I was probably not self deceived.Confirmation bias?
I look at the good and the bad, in my life and others, Christians or otherwise. I also like to study those events that are incompatible with my atheist beliefs, not just anaylse those which concur.Wishful thinking?
I actually wish that there was a God watched over us and had some special eternal purpose for us. Who wouldn't! I wish for the opposite of what I see so I can't be accused of being affected by wishful thinking.Selective thinking?
As this is a type of confirmation bias, I again point out that I am drawn to those scenarios which are inconsistent with atheist beliefs: not just focus on those which agree with my beliefs.Post hoc reasoning?
I subject every supernatural claim to a controlled study. Of course my own knowledge of the world around me is gained through the scientific method.Importantly I question all my beliefs, regularly, and investigate and test alternate beliefs. I also acknowledge what I and science does not know and am prepared to admit when I am wrong. Faith and dogma do not enter into it.

Hello Jar, my favoutite Christian.I wrote:

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1) Not true. The reasons you believe people of other faiths are mistaken are the reasons your beliefs are also false. If you can understand how they are deceived: you can see the mechanisms that operate to decieve you.

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Jar replied:

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Gilgamesh, why does that have to be true? As I have pointed out in many posts, if GOD is capable of appearing and reaching out to people more than once, what limits him from reaching out again and again? If GOD is, as we believe, someone capable of thinking this Universe and all of the sublime and aesthetic rules that govern what happens, would he not be capable of reaching out to people in a format they could accept?Is there any reason to think that all the GODs might not be simply GOD?

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As with many things you say, I simply have no problem with this concept. But it is not really the traditional Christian concept of God, is it? It's a tad like the Bahai.You can look at the myriad of religions and the fact that most people (over 90%) believe in a God one of three ways: They are all wrong, only some are right, or they are all right. The last one would be the hardest to sustain, because many religious views are contrary and incompatible.If it is the latter then God is causing some serious grief to humankind by reaching out to them in different ways, and encouraging some of them to kill those reached in other ways.Intriguing, and it does solved the dilemma of why beleivers of different faiths claim the same evidence, but it is certainly not the approach taken by the majority of theists.