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Author Topic:   New Book: Kerry ‘Unfit for Command’
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 436 of 612 (138271)
08-30-2004 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 434 by johnfolton
08-30-2004 8:52 PM


Truth in advertising -- independant evaluation. AGAIN.
another independant evaluation:

Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting 112 W. 27th Street New York, NY 10001
MEDIA ADVISORY:
Swift Boat Smears

Press Corps Keeps Anti-Kerry Distortions Alive [/B]
August 30, 2004
A group of Vietnam veterans called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth have managed to dominate campaign coverage recently with a series of inaccurate and unfounded allegations about John Kerry's Vietnam War service. But instead of debunking the group's TV ads and numerous media appearances, the press corps has devoted hours of broadcast time and considerable print attention to the group's message.
At times, some reporters seem to suggest that the Swift Boat coverage is being driven by some external force that they cannot control. "The ad war, at least over John Kerry's service in Vietnam, has for the moment effectively blocked out everything else," explained MSNBC's David Shuster (8/23/04)-- as if the media are not the ones responsible for deciding which issues were being "blocked out."
The New York Times similarly noted (8/20/04) that the group "catapulted itself to the forefront of the presidential campaign," while Fox News reporter Carl Cameron (8/23/04) suggested that "the controversy has completely knocked Kerry off message, and the political impasse suggests the story is not going away any time soon."
That "impasse" is largely the result of the media's failure to sufficiently compare the Swift Boat charges to the available military records and eyewitness accounts. Even a cursory examination of the available evidence reveals fatal flaws in the group's charges, which fly in the face of all documentary evidence, and the testimony of almost every person present when Kerry earned his medals.
Larry Thurlow, the Swift Boat Vet who claims that Kerry was not under enemy fire when he earned his Bronze Star, himself earned a Bronze Star for actions under enemy fire in the same incident. Louis Letson, who claims to have treated the wound that earned Kerry his first Purple Heart, is not the medic listed in medical records as having treated Kerry. John O'Neill, the leader of the group, has said that Kerry would have been "court-martialed" had he crossed the border into Cambodia-- but O'Neill is on tape telling President Richard Nixon that he himself had been in Cambodia. Several members of the group are on the record praising Kerry's leadership. And so on.
Imagine that the situation were reversed: What if all available documentary records showed that George W. Bush had completed his stint in the Air National Guard with flying colors? What if virtually every member of his unit said he had been there the whole time, and had done a great job? Suppose a group of fiercely partisan Democrats who had served in the Guard at the same time came forward to say that the documents and the first-hand testimony were wrong, and that Bush really hadn't been present for his Guard service. Would members of the press really have a hard time figuring out who was telling the truth in this situation? And how much coverage would they give to the Democrats' easily discredited charges?
But when Kerry is the target of the attacks, many journalists seem content to monitor the flow of charges and counter-charges, passing no judgment on the merits of the accusations but merely reporting how they seem to affect the tone of the campaign. As the Associated Press put it (8/24/04), Kerry "has been struggling in recent days against charges-- denounced by Democrats as smear tactics -- that he lied about his actions in Vietnam that won five military medals." Credible charges or smears? AP's readers could only use their own personal opinions of Democrats to judge.
To CNN, even the awarding of the medals became a matter of debate: "They're not just attacking the medals that John Kerry might have won," reporter Daryn Kagan said of the Swift Boat Vets (8/24/04).
The notion that reporters cannot pass some reasonable judgment about the ads was common. "There is no way that journalism can satisfy those who think that Kerry is a liar or that Swift Boat Veterans For Truth are liars," asserted NPR senior Washington editor Ron Elving (NPR.org, 8/25/04).
When asked if the Swift Boat ads, along with other ads critical of Bush, were accurate, CNN's Bill Schneider (8/24/04) demurred: "I don't have an answer because I haven't systematically looked at all those ads. Certainly, the Swift Boat Veterans' ads-- that first ad has been looked at with great care. And what the Washington Post concluded on Sunday was those allegations have remained unproved." At this point, the 60-second ad had been a major political controversy for weeks-- and CNN's senior political analyst couldn't find the time to figure out whether it was accurate or not?
An editorial in the L.A. Times (8/24/04) noted that the problem is not that reporters can't say whether the charges are true-- it's that they don't want to say: "The canons of the profession prevent most journalists from saying outright: These charges are false. As a result, the voters are left with a general sense that there is some controversy over...Kerry's service in Vietnam."
One suspects that the "canons of the profession" would be interpreted differently if, for example, Republican Sen. John McCain was the target of similarly unsubstantiated charges about his military service from a partisan Democratic group.
And the editorial went on to fall prey to another journalistic convention-- finding blame on both sides, even when only one side is at fault-- when it equated the Swift Boat Vets with "MoveOn.org, which is running nasty ads about Bush's avoidance of service in Vietnam."
Just as the Swift Boat Vets are "funded by conservative groups that interlock with Bush's world in various ways," the L.A. Times said MoveOn is "part of Kerry's general milieu," and "either man could shut down the groups working on his behalf if he wanted to." The only difference that the editorial acknowledged is that while the MoveOn campaign is ''nasty and personal,'' the Swift Boat Vets ads are ''nasty, personal and false.''
Never mind that MoveOn is a grassroots organization with 2 million members, founded in 1998 when Kerry was merely the junior senator from Massachusetts, while the Swift Boat Vets have no more independent existence than the ''Republicans for Clean Air,'' which attacked McCain in the 2000 primaries and then disappeared.
But to many journalists, finding some way to criticize both sides is much easier-- and politically safer-- than examining evidence to try to determine the truth. CNN's Candy Crowley (8/6/04), for example, said to Kerry political director Steve Elmendorf: "There have been ads out there that have compared the president to Hitler, that have been really, really tough ads." That comparison makes little sense, though; the Hitler "ads" were submissions by individuals to MoveOn's ad contest, and were removed from the group's website when they were discovered.
Another way of drawing a false equivalence is by talking about the "negativity" of both sides. CNN's John Mercurio (CNN.com, 8/20/04) wrote that Kerry's comments responding to the Swift Boat charges "were notable--if only because they revealed how negative, and how responsive, both campaigns have become this year." One would think, rather, that they showed how negative one campaign was and how responsive the other was.
Jim Rutenberg and Kate Zernike of the New York Times wrote a similar article (8/22/04), lamenting that while "this was supposed to be the positive campaign," both sides have discovered that "negative ads work." As evidence, the reporters noted that "Bush has spent the majority of the more than $100 million he has spent on television advertisements attacking his Democratic opponent."
This is presumably a reference to a Washington Post survey (5/31/04) that found that 75 percent of Bush's ads were negative. Not mentioned, however, was the Post's finding in the same story that Kerry's ads were only 27 percent negative.
Including that fact would have spoiled the premise of the article, that the sin of negativity is committed equally by both sides. But sometimes the truth is not somewhere in the middle.



Somebody is obviously lying, and it is not Kerry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by johnfolton, posted 08-30-2004 8:52 PM johnfolton has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by crashfrog, posted 08-30-2004 9:12 PM RAZD has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 437 of 612 (138273)
08-30-2004 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by RAZD
08-30-2004 9:05 PM


An editorial in the L.A. Times (8/24/04) noted that the problem is not that reporters can't say whether the charges are true-- it's that they don't want to say: "The canons of the profession prevent most journalists from saying outright: These charges are false. As a result, the voters are left with a general sense that there is some controversy over...Kerry's service in Vietnam."
Didn't it used to be the case that journalists acertained facts instead of repeating assertions?
Fuck it. I'm going to journalism school. Look for my byline in a couple of years, ok?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2004 9:05 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2004 9:14 PM crashfrog has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 438 of 612 (138274)
08-30-2004 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by crashfrog
08-30-2004 9:12 PM


perhaps this is where the fallacy of a liberal media gets exposed and the hard hand of commercial ownership and bottom line profits takes control ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by crashfrog, posted 08-30-2004 9:12 PM crashfrog has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 439 of 612 (138295)
08-30-2004 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by nator
08-30-2004 4:50 PM


Wait, admit that these are two different wars, that Bush Sr. was and never will be in the same position as Bush Jr.

"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."
Ephesians 5:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by nator, posted 08-30-2004 4:50 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-31-2004 12:51 AM joshua221 has replied
 Message 442 by nator, posted 08-31-2004 8:44 AM joshua221 has replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3945
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 440 of 612 (138334)
08-31-2004 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by joshua221
08-30-2004 9:50 PM


Quoting Schraf's message, that you were responding to:
Bush Sr. actually had a legitimate reason to attack Iraq, whereas Bush Jr. did not.
Bush Sr. thought about the international and long-term consequences of his actions in Iraq, whereas Bush Jr. did not.
Bush Sr. was joined by dozens of other countries, many of them our traditional European allies, in the first Gulf War, whereas Bush Jr. was not for the second Gulf War.
What are your objections to the quoted statements?
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by joshua221, posted 08-30-2004 9:50 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by joshua221, posted 08-31-2004 2:52 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 441 of 612 (138372)
08-31-2004 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 426 by Chiroptera
08-30-2004 5:03 PM


quote:
I hate to be cynical*, but I doubt that Bush Sr.'s intentions were so noble.
Oh, I know that.
It's just that Iraq did actually invade Kuwait, so Bush Sr. didn't have to lie and manufacture a reason to invade, like Jr. did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by Chiroptera, posted 08-30-2004 5:03 PM Chiroptera has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 442 of 612 (138374)
08-31-2004 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by joshua221
08-30-2004 9:50 PM


quote:
Wait, admit that these are two different wars, that Bush Sr. was and never will be in the same position as Bush Jr.
Sure.
Now please address my points.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by joshua221, posted 08-30-2004 9:50 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by joshua221, posted 08-31-2004 2:54 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 443 of 612 (138378)
08-31-2004 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 434 by johnfolton
08-30-2004 8:52 PM


tally of reply requests: 3
Are you a millionaire, whatever, or do you not mind paying more of the tax burden while wealthy people pay less of the tax burden?
MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos
Since 2001, President Bush's tax cuts have shifted federal tax payments from the richest Americans to a wide swath of middle-class families, the Congressional Budget Office has found, a conclusion likely to roil the presidential election campaign.
The CBO study, due to be released today, found that the wealthiest 20 percent, whose incomes averaged $182,700 in 2001, saw their share of federal taxes drop from 64.4 percent of total tax payments in 2001 to 63.5 percent this year. The top 1 percent, earning $1.1 million, saw their share fall to 20.1 percent of the total, from 22.2 percent.
Over that same period, taxpayers with incomes from around $51,500 to around $75,600 saw their share of federal tax payments increase. Households earning around $75,600 saw their tax burden jump the most, from 18.7 percent of all taxes to 19.5 percent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by johnfolton, posted 08-30-2004 8:52 PM johnfolton has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by RAZD, posted 08-31-2004 10:12 AM nator has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 444 of 612 (138394)
08-31-2004 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 443 by nator
08-31-2004 9:00 AM


Re: tally of reply requests: 3
I thought you already had the answer to this?
whatever writes:
No, I'm quite poor financially, thats why I'm voting for George,
http://EvC Forum: New Book: Kerry ‘Unfit for Command’ -->EvC Forum: New Book: Kerry ‘Unfit for Command’
assuming that anythng whateverr says is the truth and not just trolling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by nator, posted 08-31-2004 9:00 AM nator has not replied

Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 780 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 445 of 612 (138482)
08-31-2004 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by Chiroptera
08-30-2004 11:52 AM


Re: And what does Bush say?
Yes, seeing how the Bush campaign tried to smear McCain's war record in the 2000 primaries, it would have been naive to think that the Bush supporters would just let Kerry have a pass on this.
Well, it must have been a friendly smear because I watched McCain's speech last night, and he came out strongly in support of George Bush.
Dude, the SBV's are not just blind Bush supporters. Some of them are typically democrats. They are speaking up for the truth. Why should they let Kerry have a pass if they believe he is lying? Kerry made his war record fair game by making it a primary qualification for becoming president.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Chiroptera, posted 08-30-2004 11:52 AM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 451 by berberry, posted 08-31-2004 4:07 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied
 Message 455 by crashfrog, posted 08-31-2004 7:48 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 780 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 446 of 612 (138486)
08-31-2004 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by RAZD
08-30-2004 12:02 PM


Re: And what does Bush say?
he also has a record of lying and misrepresenting things in his political ads (the ones on Kerry for instance)
hahahaha...
and has yet to denounce the SBV ad personally and specifically.
Its not like he's in control of the SBV's. They are people countering Kerry's statements and that is all. He has no right to try to stop them from speaking. On the contrary, Bush has never attacked Kerry's war record personally and admits that Kerry's service was more heroic than his own since Kerry was in "harm's way" and he wasn't.
Kerry's guys, on the other hand, have threatened lawsuits, asked stations not to air their ad, and dug up personal and medical records on these guys to try and find any dirt to silence them. What happened to free speech? Guess that doesn't apply to anyone opposing Kerry.
don't know what you're talking about in the rest of your post.
The whole war in Iraq is based on false information, distortion of facts and blatant misrepresentations.
My gosh.. you people really do see only what you want to see. You're divorced from reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2004 12:02 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by RAZD, posted 08-31-2004 2:47 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied
 Message 456 by crashfrog, posted 08-31-2004 7:49 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 447 of 612 (138522)
08-31-2004 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by Hangdawg13
08-31-2004 1:21 PM


Re: And what does Bush say? (If he says it, it's a lie)
Hey laugh if you think it really is funny that the president of the United States has to lie and misrepresent Kerry's voting record in order to get re-elected ... that he has NOTHING positive to say about his administration that isn't false or misleading. The economy is in the dumps and is not recovering, the only signs of "improvement" are that there is no-one left to fire to generate numbers for the unemployment rolls (they drop people off after their unemployment insurance ends, 26 weeks after becoming unemployed) AND what jobs that are available are poorer paying with less (if any) benefits.
POVERTY HAS INCREASED EVERY YEAR OF HIS ADMINISTRATION
That is despicable. And yes it is his fault that nothing has been done about it.
And you THINK he has nothing to do with the SBV ads, but the same company that produced that ad has produced all the other "outside" smear ads for the bush campaigns (this is the 5th, and one was against John McCain). "Groups" that suddenly appeared just before the ads and disappeared after the campaign without a ripple. A statement that he finds that ad specifically heinous, false and misleading is more than appropriate IF he is not involved.
No, you are divorced from reality. What I see is also what people in the nations of our allies, or countries that used to be allies before shrubby antagonized them when he needed them most (an unprecedented example of failed and incompetent management).
Try some outside verification rather than digging through the republican dung pile, and you might be surprised.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-31-2004 1:21 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by ThingsChange, posted 08-31-2004 3:25 PM RAZD has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 448 of 612 (138524)
08-31-2004 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by Minnemooseus
08-31-2004 12:51 AM


The situations of the two men were/are different.
Judging them with the use two sets of different circumstances/consequences is not a good idea.

"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."
Ephesians 5:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-31-2004 12:51 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by RAZD, posted 08-31-2004 5:14 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 454 by nator, posted 08-31-2004 6:21 PM joshua221 has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 449 of 612 (138525)
08-31-2004 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by nator
08-31-2004 8:44 AM


With that, (the above reply to moose), I say your points concerning JR. and SR. can be valid, but not critical, you can't use them to tell either one of them that they did the wrong thing.

"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."
Ephesians 5:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by nator, posted 08-31-2004 8:44 AM nator has not replied

ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5955 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 450 of 612 (138539)
08-31-2004 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by RAZD
08-31-2004 2:47 PM


Re: And what does Bush say? (If he says it, it's a lie)
RAZD writes:
POVERTY HAS INCREASED EVERY YEAR OF HIS ADMINISTRATION
The economy is not "in the dumps", unemployment is not high, and poverty is not unusual coming out of a recession.
From Census stats:
U.S. Census Bureau: Page not found
I see nothing wrong with free speech and the SBV ads. I have heard these guys interviewed, and they seem pretty convincing in their accounts and their strong feelings. They also dispell some of the attempted distortions of their accounts in Kerry attempts to discredit them (i.e. Kerry campaign lies). Attacking SBV is the Democrats' attempt to take attention away from the facts of what Kerry did and said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by RAZD, posted 08-31-2004 2:47 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by RAZD, posted 08-31-2004 5:36 PM ThingsChange has not replied

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