"THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEO

If there were "numerous" wheels in your estimate, than it would be unrealistic. The few that remain is realistic seeing that we have an event almost 3500 years old.Guys, when speaking realistically, the Israelites only needed to average 1.5 miles an hour to cross the 140 mile stretch on the southern road from Succoth to Nuweiba. That on top of the fact that the Bible specifically states that the pillar of cloud/fire guided them by "day AND NIGHT"! Let us say then they walke both day and night. That would equal to 14 days walking distance. But let's be a bit realistic. Let us say they stopped to rest ever so often....then their 7 days of walking would have been equivalent to approx 12 days. Scripture makes it very clear that God gave them strength and caused their sandles and clothes to not wear out.But even then, the children of Israel had wagons, donkeys, and horses of which to ride. Some slept on the donkeys/wagons/horses, while others walked, and then take turns. Kind of like today when we travel across the country via car, you shift back and forth each taking turns to sleep, but yet making progress throughout the night.When we speak of traveling in days back in Ancient times, we are usually excluding the night, since armies had to pitch camp at night, and continue the next morning. But since the Bible speaks of the pillar of fire by night, so that they might "walk by day and night", we know that this in conjunction with the average amount needed probably gave them just the right amount time they needed.PaulK,Prove to me that the amount of coral found on the chariot wheels equals the amount that can grow within 25 years, plus the fact that the wood will totally disintegrate. We arn't just talking chariot wheels here, we are talking about a human femur bone, a pile of rubbel of which various things can be identified, such as a human rib cage, spine, horse spine, three 6 spoke chariot wheels, daggers, spear heads, horse hooves, and many other very strange looking objects unknown to the normal coral world. The pile of debris looks almost as though a massive disaster took place where humans, horses, and cattle all met their fate at once and were piled on top of eachother under the sea.The coral is very unique.

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~Lysimachus

Another thing, some pieces of coral that belonged to the chariot wheels was brought up, and broken. You know what was found in the broken coral? Rust spots...clearly seen rust colored coral, indicating there was indeed metal that reinforced a number of these chariot wheels. This stuff is thousands of years old...no way did Ron plant that stuff...and a lot of it Ron didn't even see himself.Just the fact that Vivike Pontien identified a few coral encrusted chariot wheels on the Saudi Arabian side PROVES that Ron did not plant them. Ron Wyatt and his sons NEVER ONCE went diving on the Saudi side! NOT ONCE!

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~Lysimachus

Prince Lucianus,I gather you are knew, and are behind the times. Based on your response, I can clearly see that you have not read a number of posts that have already clearly identified the gold gilded wheel as Egyptian. They are Egyption Lucy, and no Egyptologist or authority has disputed it. Coral also does attach to wood. Please do read carefully my posts on the chariot wheels:http://EvC Forum: Theory: Why The Exodus Myth Exists -->EvC Forum: Theory: Why The Exodus Myth ExistsPlease read messages 81 and 82 very carefully. Also bear in mind that those posts I wrote are quite old, and I have read new information since that confirms the four spoke wheels to be during the 18th dynasty. It is a shame that PaulK blindly accepts you in here without being noble enough to share with you past information that is already explained. He delights to see someone disagree with me, and then jumps on the bandwaggon to team up against his foes.As for the identifying the number of spokes and which dynasty the wheels are from, please carefully read Message 267 in this link:http://EvC Forum: "THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEO -->EvC Forum: "THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEOGwyddyonWelcome to EVC . However, I pray that you are not here to try and make my life more complicated. I enjoy debating here much for the fact that debators here seem somewhat more reasonable and sensible in their debating, rather "the whole bible is all wet and there's nothing good about it" type of attitude exerted so adamantly at SPSW. At least this forum has people from all sides, creationists, biblical archaeologists, archaeologists, and evolutionists alike. At least here you are not hounded on by a group of hound dogs like at SPSW, where 99% of the members are athiests and completely defy the biblical narrative and all jump on you making it rather impossible to have a sensible discussion.I will answer your questions regarding Nassif Moammed Hassan later.AmlodhiGive me some time, but Dr. Moller has pictures of a number of hub caps that have been preserved. The hub caps are from war chariots, and very few wheels have been preserved. The chariots that have been found at the bottom of Aqaba parallel sharply with numerious inscriptions (not to mention that the 4 spoke gold gilded wheel matches sharply with inscriptions, and sources that heavily state that the Egyptian's used 4 spoke gold covered chariot wheels--specifically designed for the priesthood and nobility. That gold gilded wheel you see there belongs to a priest, not a war chariot.)You guys are far from proper research in this area, and now I don't have the time to start from the beginning. It would be beneficial for ALL of you to purchase that book, The Exodus Case, by Dr. lennart Moller. He has a total of 71 References from reputable sources around the globe--including books solely focussed on the evolving chariot wheel and the makeup of these chariot wheels. Moller has done is research in this area, and it has been proven without a shadow of doubt that the chariot wheels identified at the bottom of Aqaba are indeed Egyptian. They are the only chariot wheels in the world that we know of that physically exist that match the inscriptions, since we only have 11 wheels preserved that were made for the Pharaoh's and nobility.

PaulK

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I have investigated the question of Nassif Mohammad Hassan. The conclusions are that he existed and held that office, and made the remarks attributed to him. However the evidence is that he did not have a doctorate at the time so referring to him as "Doctor" in connection to the Wyatt claims is at least slightly misleading.

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Also I do not know how closely he examined the wheel or the reasons for his conclusions. I suspect a superficial examination where the wheel was presumed genuine. Wyatt's reports indicate a friendly relationship so he may have been deceived by Wyatt. The wheel in question is now missing so there is no chance of further examination unless and until it is found. This in itself is supicious - given the general shortage of ancient chariot wheels and the fact that it is an unusual type I am surprised that Wyatt would be permitted to leave the country with it and even more surprised that he would lose it.

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Amazing. So you admit that Nassif Hassan did say this, but now since you find yourself at a loss, you are forced to revert by picking at straws and state that he "didn't" have a doctorate at the time he said it. So, if he had said it when he didn't have a doctorate, but then obtained a doctorate the next week and still hadn't changed his mind, would that mean that his statement DIDN'T COUNT?It is hard to believe that you are getting this ridiculous. Spare me some thing worthwhile to talk about.Prince Lucianus,

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This is an assumption based on the fact that there are no finds of similar wheels in Egypt (although these wheel types have been found in Etruria f.i).

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Tests have shown, that the light weight variant with 6 spokes small wheels -and I didn't say 4 spokes didn't exist, just that I did not find a picture of it- have proven to be very succesfull. So, I believe chariots were usefull, but the heavier wheels will make several advantages absolete. Furthermore, the examples given here:

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It may be an assumption, but it is a well supported assumption seeing that there are only 11 wheels preserved in Egypt. The wheels found at the bottom of Aqaba sharply parallel with those engraved on Egyptian inscriptions, and the fact that it is well known there is an inscription concerning Thutmosis III (18th dynasty), which speaks of golden chariots in many different situations. It is repeated in the document several times: The Ancient Near East (1958) vol 1., p 175-183, editor J.B. Pritchard, Princeton University Press, Princeton, USA.Also, as you will soon find out, the hub cap styles identified also sharply parallel to the hub caps preserved in Ancient Egypt from this time.

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Furthermore, the examples given here: [image] prove that the basic rim structure remained the same, but the uniquely preserved (ahem) one found is more robust and bigger (in comparison with preserved wheels) and so falls outside of Hoffmeiers category. Only your own assumption that it might be a 18th century chariot build for different purposes is backing this up.

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So you are assuming that simply because a small illustration shows the rims of the wheels to be the same, that this is what the illustration is trying to portrait?! This is by far the weekest argument I have heard yet. Neither Moller nor Hoffmeier are mentioning anything in regard to the basic rim structure, only to that of the number of spokes.

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I can also attack the claim that these things are actually wheels. People are looking at coral structures like this:[image]

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and claim it's a chariot wheel with iron in it (How they can spot the difference between 6 or 8 spokes is amazing). Now, I know Egytpians were using iron, but hammered iron was not known in Egypt during Thutmoses IV reign. So it might have been cast, like nails, but this is very unlikely on a chariot now is it.

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How did coral grow on this wooden structure BtW. It's evidently not been covered with sand, so the wood should have rotted away.

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Attacking that will be of little consequence to the overwhelming evidence let me assure you. It has been well established that a number of wheels (at least 20) lie at the bottom of the Gulf of Aqaba. I have a host of pictures taken by Moller of coral encrusted chariot wheels, and the numbers of spokes are so visible that it is an indisputable fact. In the video, The Exodus Revealed, Moller showed the underwater footage to well trained coral experts, and have concluded Moller’s theory to be right that these are indeed objects of which coral has fastened to. It also been well established that coral does not begin to grow on sand, or anything of the kind! It first attaches itself to an object, and since wood is organic material coral will attach itself to the wood, and then consume the wood leaving only the shape of that which the coral attached itself to. So your assumption that the wood should have rotted away is correct. It did rot away slowly as the coral slowly took over replacing the molecules. Eventually, coral grows to become strong and attaches itself to the surrounding coral, leaving firm chariot shaped coral objects. Divers have broken this coral with ease, and the odd shapes that exist with these coral objects do not exist elsewhere in the Gulf of Aqaba.You must be trained in order to properly identify many of these coral encrusted chariot wheels and the numbers of spokes as the scientists have done. They are qualified, we are not. Your job is to trust them, as the video has done its job at presenting these proven facts.The scientists that are contributing and support Moller’s new documentary, The Exodus Case, are listed below:Dr. Manfred Beitak
Egyptologist, Professor
University of Vienna, Austria, and the Austrian Archaeological Institute in Cairo, Egypt Dr. Manfred Bietak is the founder and director of the Archeological Institute’s excavation in Tel El Daba, located in the eastern Nile Delta. Dr. Bietak has uncovered the remains of a town of 20-30,000 people who are believed to have emigrated from Canaan through Palestine.Professor Ken Kitchen
Egyptologist, Emeritus Professor University of Liverpool, England Professor Ken Kitchen is one of the world’s leading Egyptologists and is credited for creating the structure for understanding Egyptian dynasties and their organizational order.
His research interests include Egyptian and Near Eastern history, Egyptian texts, and ancient chronology.Dr. Ebba During
Arrchaeoosteological Research Laboratory
Stockholm University, SwedenAs head of the department of Archaeoosteology, Dr. Ebba During has been instructing graduate students, conducting research, and identifying bones for over thirty years. One of her recent projects was an osteological analysis of the human skeletal remains of the Swedish warship Kronan which exploded and sank off the east coast of the Baltic Island of Oland on June 1, 1676.Professor Alan Millard
Rankin Professor of Hebrew & Semitic Language
University of Liverpool, England Professor Alan Millard is Rankin Professor of Hebrew and Ancient Semitic Languages at the University of Liverpool and a Fellow of the Society for Old Testament Study. His research interests lie in Semitic languages, history, and culture of the ancient Near East. He also has considerable first hand experience of archaeology, having been involved in excavations at Arpad, Petra, Nimrud, and Qadesh.Rabbi Manis Friedman
Biblical Scholar, Lecturer, Author World-renowned author, counselor, lecturer and philosopher, Rabbi Manis Friedman is a professionally ranked member of the National Speakers Association. He hosts his own critically acclaimed cable television series, Torah Forum with Manus Friedman, syndicated throughout North America. His first book, Doesn’t Anyone Blush Anymore?, was published by Harper San Francisco in 1990, and is currently in its fourth printing.Dr. Gregor Hodgson
Marine Biologist, Professor (Visiting)
University of California, Los Angeles; U.S.A.Dr. Gregor Hodgson is the founder and director of the Reef Check Foundation, a global network of coral experts who train volunteer scuba divers and snorklers to monitor coral reef changes around the world. Dr. Hodgson’s current research focuses on human impacts on coral reefs, coral reef management, and conservation.Source: Mahoney Media – Page not found
---------------------------------------------------------------Notice the last one. A Marine Biologist is trained to be a coral expert. He is contributing to Moller’s theories regarding the chariot wheels.

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About dating the exodus:

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As for the Old Testament texts, of which the books of the Pentateuch are the first, there are a number of factors indicating that they are the original texts. They were written down by Moses, in part dictated directly by the Lord himself (according to the Bible), or they described EVENTS which Moses, as eye-witness could follow in detail

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You mean like Moses writing down his own death
These books can not be automatically attributed to Moses. If you want to defend that case and Moller's one, explain why the city of Rameses is mentioned in Genesis and Exodus (so, as written by Moses), although it is build by Ramses the Great (roundabout) 150 years later.
You know that Thutmoses IV and the city Of Rameses can not be used for the same period.

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You surprise me that you bring up this old argument. Obviously you did not pull that argument on me thinking that no scholar has thought of this in the past? This old argument stems back through the centuries, and new information reveals the truth concerning the city of Rameses. It is clearly evident that tradition stands strong, of which why so many are still deceived by Cecil B. Demil’s grand epoch, The Ten Commandments. Tradition is so deep rooted into people, and when it comes to countering it, you will find that it is very difficult to break people away from it when new information shows otherwise.I would have thought you would have at least taken the time to look this subject on your own before posting it, as this argument has been countered all over the web. Here is your answer for the so called proof that the Exodus took place during Rameses because he built Pithom and Raamses:---------------------------------------------------------------------Pithom and RamesesThe first bit of evidence supporting a 13th century date would seem to be Exodus 1:11. Exodus 1:11 is presumed to date the period of oppression with the building of Pithom and Rameses. The logic of the argument' runs as follows: Ra'ameses is Per Ramses, today equated with Tanis in the delta region. Tanis was abandoned by the Hyksos after their loss to Ahmase I (c. 1570 BC) afterwhich it fell into ruins. It was not until Seti I (c. 1300 1290 BC) that Tanis was reestablished. The probability of construction at Tanis before 1446 BC is doubtful. So we must assume that Rameses II was the Pharaoh of the oppression at least at its height. There are many problems with this understanding of the text. First, this understanding does not take into account other Scripture that lends information to Exodus chronology. John J. Davis suggests:it is clear that the beginning of the enslavement of Israel and the building of Pithom and Ra’amses took place before the birth of Moses. His birth apparently occurred in the latter part of the oppression period as implied by Exodus 2. We know that Moses was eighty years old at the time of the Exodus (Ex.7:7); this simply means that the construction work described in chapter one would have occurred eighty years prior to the date of the exodus. If the late date of the exodus is correct (about 1280 BC), Moses would have been born about 1360 BC, or in the later stages of the Eighteenth Dynasty. It is therefore obvious that Rameses II could not have been the Pharaoh who ordered the Israelites to build the store cities of Exodus 1:11." Secondly, the absence of the prefix Pi in regards to Rameses seems to attest to the fact that the royal residence Pi-Rameses is not in mind (especially with the presence of Pi-thom in the same phrase). The actual site of biblical Rameses has been identified throughout the centuries with Tanis, Tell el-Maskhouta, Tell er-Retebah and Pelusium. The archaeology of these sites seem to point to a 13th century date. However, most scholars are abandoning the sites mentioned above for a site known as Qantir, located south of Tanis. Qantir was excavated by Mahmud Hamz and among his findings were five ostraca inscribed with the name "Pi-Rameses.The site of Pithom has been identified as Tell el-Maskhouta, Tell er-Retebah and recently Heliopolis (On)8 It is interesting to note that the Septuagint adds "and On" to Exodus 1:11. Though the question is not settled, the archaeological evidence 9 and the literary evidence points to either Tell er-Retebah or Heliopolis. Both these sites have existed from at least the Second Intermediate Period (c.1800 1570 BC) through the New Kingdom (c.1570 1090 BC) and would support either a 13th or 15th century date.If we postulate that the Exodus occurred in the mid fifteenth century, then how could the name of Rameses appear prior to the 19th dynasty of Egypt when Rameses reigned? Charles Aling argues that the name Rameses is known from inscriptions in the Middle Kingdom (12th dynasty) 10 Though this probably has no bearing on the city in question, it does show that the name was present before a Rameses ever was Pharaoh.A more plausible theory, is that, Rameses is a ‘modernization, of an obsolete place name added by a later scribe. This could not be so, Albright pointed out, if the identification of Rameses with Tanis was assured. The name Pi-Rameses would not have been used after 1100 BC when the name Tanis was adopted. This is not the case with Qantir. Anachronism is common in the Bible. In Genesis 14:14 we have reference to the city of Dan. Dan would not be called Dan until centuries later. During Abraham's time the city was known as Laish (or Leshem). Obviously, at the time of writing, the 'scribe' would have noticed an obsolete place name and replaced it with one that was more familiar to him.Again in Genesis 47:11, we have reference to the "land of Rameses". No scholar attempts to date this passage to the reign of Rameses II, but see it as anachronistic. If it is true for these two passages, why not for the Exodus 1:11 passage?Source: http://home.earthlink.net/~neatoguy/conqest.html
---------------------------------------------------------------I might also add that there is growing support for the dating of the 1446 BC Exodus world wide compared to other suggestions. (A.J. Hoerth (1998) Archaeology and The Old Testament, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, USA.)Moreover, 14 Carbon dating of remains of Jericho suggests the destruction to have happened around 1400 BC, tallying quite sharply with the hypothesis presented. (B.G. Wood (1990) Dating Jericho’s destruction, Biblical Archaeology Review, 5.)If you would like, I can provide you the data that astronomically pin points the approximate date of the Exodus to be 1446 BC using scripture. There are preserved ancient documents with astronomic references to points in time, that when used in conjunction with various verses from scripture, we can be pretty sure we’ve got it down pat.A broad picture is beginning to be painted before us here. There isn’t just little material to work with. Investigations coming from all sorts of angles are leading us to these correct conclusions, such as the date of the Exodus, the location of the crossing (based on well documented calculations, comparing scripture with old maps that completely obliterate the traditional theories).May you continue to enjoy this wonderful journey on the many unexplained issues regarding the Exodus accountnow for the first time being revealed to the world like never before! This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-24-2004 05:38 PM

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~Lysimachus

Chariot Wheels at the Bottom of the Gulf of Aqaba
Assyrian? or of other Egyptian adopted Canaanite origin?A number of arguments have spread as to identify which ancient civilization the chariot wheels belonged to that have been found on the underwater bridge at the sea bed of the Gulf of Aqaba. One common argument critics often utilize is that the wheels are of Assyrian origin, and cannot be Egyptian. However, after careful analysis, one will discover that this argument rests upon poor speculation as no solid argument has been provided as to why they could or probably be Assyrian. This hasty, impulsive, conclusion that the wheels must be Assyrian only reveals a desperate, reactive, attempt to discredit the biblical account of the Exodus, and completely ignores several factors that critically deal with this notion. Following are several points which must be thoroughly considered as to why the wheels at the sea bed of the Gulf of Aqaba cannot be Assyrian, but more likely Egyptian:1. The assertion that the style of wheels is seemingly Assyrian could easily indicate that of other Canaanite origin. It is well known that the chariot wheels of the Egyptians came to them via the Hyksos people, and were probably of Syrian origin. This is indicative of the fact that the seemingly Assyrian appearance of these chariot wheels is actually Egyptian, since Egyptian chariot wheels were patterned off from Syrian originsintroduced through the Hyksos.2. Research confirms that by the beginning of the early Neo-Assyrian epoch, in the reign of Ashurnasirpal II, chariots are virtually identical to those of the latter 18th Dynasty and 19th Dynasty of Egypt.3. Assyrians were not noted for having four-spoke chariot wheels, but utilized six-spoked chariot wheels for strength, that had wicker bodies with metal fittings, and crossed quivers that were attached to the sides. By the of Tiglath-Pileser III, however, a few generations later, chariot design had changed completely. The only period during which the machines used in Egypt and Mesopotamia were identical was during the later Egyptian New Kingdom and this early Neo-Assyrian epoch. The four-spoked gold gilded wheel discovered at the sea bed of the Gulf of Aqaba contrasts sharply with the types of chariot wheels Assyrians were noted to have.4. One scholar said that one of the chariot parts found at the bottom of the Gulf of Aqaba is Assyrian. Does this nullify the Biblical account of the Red Sea crossing at Aqaba? Not in the slightest. Come to find out, the 18th Dynasty rulership of Egypt was engaged in war with the Assyrians, and captured Assyrian chariots were trophies of war. If it were true that one of these wheels were identified as Assyrian, it would only be confirmation of this fact. However, the fact that only one chariot part has been identified as Assyrian, but the rest Egyptian, helps to confirm a disaster of the Egyptian army at the Gulf of Aqaba.5. The chariots identified are those of 4, 6, and 8 spoked wheels. The only time believed for this variety to exit simultaneously was during the 18th Dynasty Egypt. Any map showing the borders of Egypt during the mid to late 18th Dynasty extends all the way to, and all along the west coast of the Gulf of Aqaba. The borders of the Assyrian empire on the other hand were not noted for extending to the Gulf of Aqaba. A number of maps on the web will indicate that Assyria’s borders at its height of power never extended into the borders of the Gulf of Aqaba. If they had any influence at all in this region, it was of little significance.Two maps displaying the maximum borders of the Assyrian Empire: Eight- and four- spoked chariot wheels from the time of Thutmosis IV.This inscription helps seal the fact that the wheels found at the sea bed of the Gulf of Aqaba are most certainly from the 18th dynasty Egypt. Notice the 8 spoked chariot wheel along with the 4 spoked. This combination parallels with what has been found on the sea bedstrongly supporting that there was indeed a disaster that took place of an Egyptian army, not Assyrian.6. Although the style of hub caps identified on a number of wheels at the Gulf of Aqaba do not match the style of the hub caps on the wheels of the chariot found in King Tutankhamun’s tomb, they clearly match the hub caps that have been preserved from war chariots used around that time. The style of the chariot found in Tutankhamun’s tomb was probably a style used for ceremonial purposes. As can be seen in the photo below, the preserved Egyptian war chariot hub caps are quite different from the wheel found in King Tutankhamun’s tomb: Hub caps from Egyptian wheels of a more solid character; compared to the wheel shown in Tutankhamun’s tomb below. The chariot wheels had different designs. This is an example of a wheel from a light weight chariot, probably used for ceremonial purposes.ConclusionCan the chariot wheels identified on the sea bed of the Gulf of Aqaba be from that of an Assyrian army? Very unlikely.Can the chariot wheels identified on the sea bed of the Gulf of Aqaba be from that of an Egyptian army in pursuit of the Israelites at the crossing point across Nuweiba beach on the underwater land bridge? Very likely.These points in conjunction with a host of other studies concerning the traveling distance of the Israelites and the Egyptian army, the location of Mt. Sinai according to scripture, the correct location of Succoth, the number of days of travel, the distance span between Succoth and Etham, the scriptural fact that the Israelites were out of Egypt before they crossed the Red Sea (west coast of Suez and northern lakes is clearly within the Egyptian border), and a careful analysis and comparison of the biblical account of the Exodus journey all coincide astronomically as we begin to see a broad, solid, picture unfold before our eyes.If all the points are viewed on a grand scale, it will be vividly clear that the theories that have been presented regarding the Exodus account are the most supported and solid arguments ever utilized.This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-24-2004 05:39 PMThis message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-24-2004 05:42 PM

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~Lysimachus

PaulK,

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Worse he has a record of claiming to find things from the Bible and in some cases he is almost certainly wrong (his "Ark" site) or lying (his claim to have found Jesus' blood and to have had it DNA tested

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Sometimes I feel like screaming inside when I hear you say things like this. I couldn’t even begin to elaborate how many assumptions are corroborated into this statement. Let me put it this way. You have done very little research on this matter. If you’ve read the material without watching the videos, your research is incomplete. If you’ve watched the videos without reading the material, your research is still incomplete. I’ve done both plus much more. W.A.R. was just digging in that cave last year (2003), and the Ark of the Covenant rests beyond the wall that they are in the process of securing before they continue. It’s getting close PaulK, and those Ten Commandments are going to be revealed to the world soon enough. You just wait and see what I’m talking about. I guarantee you with 100% certainty that one day you will say he was right. Mark my words.The blood sample is still preserved, and it was tested in a laboratory on the video. Many love to use the argument that Ron has not provided the sufficient evidence concerning the Ark of the Covenant. Let me make this clear; it was not meant to be that way. It is under the agreement with Israeli authorities that much of the existing evidence is to be kept top secret, for fear it will arouse all of Palestine and they do not want the place turning into a shrine. W.A.R. is going back to continue the dig (there was an inscription found at the entrance of a Cavea Babylonian cherubim representing a royal entrance), and they are digging exactly in the cave where Josephus, the Bible, and the Apocrypha (especially Maccabees) all point to the resting place of the Ark of the Covenant. Bill Fry has done a good job at providing the correct information regarding the blood samples in his updates:Page not found - Anchor Stone International
Page not found - Anchor Stone International
Page not found - Anchor Stone International
Page not found - Anchor Stone International

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Even worse there are grounds to suspect him of "planting" evidence at this site and at least one other, which is why I am wondering what these "wheels" might really be made of.

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Until proven wrong we have every reason to believe. The wheels on the seabed are too aged and brittle to have been planted by Ron. This in conjunction with the fact that horse, cattle, and human bones (human femur bone discovered by Aaron Sen, a close friend of Andrew Jones) have been found intermingled with the chariot parts scattered across the seabed on the underwater land bridge. These were discoveries made by divers after Ron Wyatt died. To stretch the argument and say he planted all of this stuff is beyond human reason. Ron Wyatt didn’t plant one shred of debris at the bottom of the Gulf of Aqaba, and even if he had, it still would not negate the big picture here, since there is just too much debris being found that he never knew about.

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Still if they are using real metal detectors that puts the current team one up on Wyatt who favoured a pseudo-scientific variation on a dowsing rod called a "molecular frequency generator".

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Yet again, you demonstrate your ability to properly research these subjects from an open-minded approach.In 1988, Ray Brubaker, of "God's News Behind the News" in St. Petersburg, FL., asked an electrical engineer to research Ron's claims. This independent, non-biased research on the part of Terry Johnson of Tampa, FL, included research on the molecular frequency generator. This report is attached (Appendix B) and explains in layman's terms.Also, notice that the EX NIHILO article condemning this gives no names of the scientists who supposedly built and tested these-devices.Joe Walker, of Nashville, TN. used the molecular frequency generator to help the police department locate the body of a boy drowned in a lake. (Appendix C)This instrument is not divining" but works on very solid scientific principles. Many scientists, archaeologists, engineers, etc. use them. The molecular frequency generator we use is manufactured by Cochran and Associates of Bowling Green, Ky. and costs $6,500.00- quite a high price for a "divining rod". (Appendix E)Also, the location of metal on the site with the molecular frequency generator was identical to those located by ferromagnetic and pulse induction detectors, as well as the sub-surface interface radar. So, if you want to eliminate the molecular frequency generator scans, the results are still the same.The location of metal on the site with the molecular frequency generator was identical to those located by ferromagnetic and pulse induction detectors, as well as the sub-surface interface radar.!!!!!So you can take the dowsing rods away (David Fasold who was the one who brought this equipment on to the site to use anyway) but the other metal detector results most certainly still stand. You can even see the scans on video SHOWING the PATTERN!jar,

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If there is a rank of 5, then the column alone would be over 300 miles long. And that is only assuming 4 feet between ranks. If you put a few pack animals in there, say an average of 6 feet between ranks, the length of the column gets down right silly, over 450 miles long. Since the distance between Damascus and Cairo is only 382 miles, you can see just how improbable the Biblical account really is.

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Based on what number of people? We are only talking about approx. 2 million people. This number is not far fetched. It is extremely realistic, since we are speaking of the population of an ENTIRE race here (that includes a great number of foreigners). You also aren’t taking into account how wide their line was. It could have been a very wide line. Also, where are you getting these statistics that 2 million people and animals would stretch over 450 miles long?What about Xerxes and the massive army he assembled to invade Greece during the Persian Wars? Are you going to state that the number of his army was unrealistic? The majority of sources agree that the army alleged ranged between 1.5 to 5.6 million. Some sources are only coming from the perspective of military units alone, but Herodotus includes the baggage bearers.http://www.herodotuswebsite.co.uk/xerxes.htmAccording to A.T. Jones, author of The Great Empires of Prophecy, he quotes and assembles numerous sources, including those of Herodotus:QUOTE:
Xerxes finally took up his march toward Greece, meeting with neither check nor mischance until he came to Thermopylae. Indeed, the Thessalians warmy espoused the side of the Medes; and afterward, in the source of the wary, they were of the greatest servce to Xerxes.2. Thermoplyae — (thermo, heat; pylae, gates,--gates of the hot springs) is a pass from Thessaly into Greece, about seven feet wide, only wide enough for a single carrage, between the high mountains and the sea; and is the only means of entering Greece by land from north or east. Here the Greeks determined to make their stand, and resist the progress of the host of Xerxes. At this point the army of Xerxes, including those brought out of Asia and those gathered in Europe, amounted to 2,641,610 fighting men. Such then being the number of the fighting men, it is my belief that the attendants who followed the camp, together with the crews of the corn-barks, and of the other craft accompanying the army, made up an amount rather above than below that of the fighting men. However, I will not reckon them as either fewer or more, but take them at an equal number. We have therefore to add the sum already reached an exactly equal amount. This will give 5,283,220 as the whole number of men brought by Xerxes, the son of Darius, as the Sepias and Thermopylae. And among all this multitude of men there was not one who, for beauty and stature, deserved more than Xerxes himself to wield so vast a power.Herodutus (Id., chaps. 186, 187.
END OF QUOTEThis is not to mention the fact that most scholars agree that Darius’ army at the battle of Arbela (aka Guagamela) against Alexander’s army of approx. 40-46 thousand men averaged around 1 million men.These figures are not even considering all the woman and children that are left home! And yet, look how large these figures are!!! And you’re telling me that it is very unlikely for Hebrew nation to be figured around 2 million individuals?! If there is anything unrealistic, it is your outlandish false allegations.Brian

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It isnt realistic, as you say, the column couldn't be 100 persons wide as that is far too wide for the southern route out of the city of Rameses. The widest I have seen presented is 10 persons wide, I am sure that was by Van Seters, and John Bright estimates it at 4 persons what he calls 'an old fashioned column of four' although he doesn't give a source for this.

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At 10 wide the column is 150 miles long, at 4 it is 315! The Israelites would be crossing the Gulf of Aqabah and there would still be more than half of them waiting to get out of Egypt.

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Funny how these little 'problems' are overlooked by some people.

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I don’t believe ONE word when you say more than half of them would be waiting to get out of Egypt. The fact is, your calculations are very unrealistic, as you can see on a satellite map the tiny Nuweiba beach ITSELF can accommodate 2-3 MILLION PEOPLE! Now take these 2 million people on that little dot of Nuweiba beach and stretch that dot out backward toward Egypt. It isn’t going to go very far. It is actually comical to watch you make these assertions, as you seem to forget they all gathered at the beach BEFORE they crossed. If these assertions that you are making are true, than anyone could make the assertion that it was very unrealistic for the vast Persian army under Xerxes to cross the Hellespont and then onto the narrow pass of Thermopylae (wide enough to carry only a SINGLE carriage), because most of the army would still be in Turkey!. The fact is, there is vast difference here. Here we have a massive desert (the Sinai Peninsula) to accommodate millions of people here, not a narrow pass. To say that the columns would be 4 or 10 people wide is ludicrous! In this vast desert we have plenty of room for very wide columnsprobably more like anywhere from 50 to 300 persons wide. Plus, you seem to forget that nowhere have we stated that they left the city of Rameses, but rather the land of Rameses. There is a big difference here. Also, the land of Rameses is the same as the land of Goshen, so when the Israelites departed from land of Rameses they did not all take off from the city, but rather all took off from the land of Rameses to gather at Succoth outside of Egypt. From this point forth, there was plenty of room in the desert to form wide and massive columns. Their next stop was to encamp at Etham (a land), at the edge of the Wilderness as depicted in the map below: If they camped at Etham, that means they were fairly gathered in this vicinity, meaning their lines did not trail all the way back to Egypt!. From Etham they turn south into the Wadi Watir that heads toward Nuwieba beach. This would have been the only location where they would have been forced to narrow down their columns (with large numbers of Israelites waiting their turn, to enter the wadi) as they traveled to camp at the final location, before Pi-Hahiroth (on Nuweiba beach), over against Baalzephon (which is across the sea).Probably a very similar scenario to what the Persian army would have done before they crossed the Hellespont and the pass of Thermopylae. There are no ‘little problems’ after all. They can be made to look like problems, but when tested in a real life scenario, there are various plausible scenarios that are usually overlooked.sidelined

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Nothing like having an opponent shoot themselves in the foot.You would not find metal from chariot wheels with rust spots it would be entirely crusted if indeed there was even a trace of metal left after nearly 3 millenia but only IF THEY WERE USING IRON IN THIER CHARIOTS. The only metal used was copper or brass to quiet the noise of the wheels.

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I think you misunderstand me here. These rust spots are simply the stains of rust. And yes, there are a number of sources that confirm the use of Iron during the 18th dynasty.Some books you might consider looking to are thus:"Chariots and Related Equipment from the tomb of Tutankhamun" (1985) by M A Littauer and J H Crouwel"Wheeled Vehicles and the Ridden Animals in the ancient near east" (1979) by same authors above"Les Chevaux du Nouvel Empire Egyptien: Origines, Races, Harnachement" (1991) by C. Rommelaere"Chariots, Chariotry and the Hyksos" (1980) - journal of the society of for the study of Egyptian antiquities"Observations on the evolving chariot wheel in the 18th dynasty" by J K Hoffmeier (1976)"A Chariot wheel from the tomb of Amenhophis II" (1973) by A C Western
"An Egyptian Wheel in Brooklyn" (1979) by M A Littauer and J H CrouwelAnd yes, there still could be rust stained spots after 3500 years. The metal itself will crumble away and lose its form, but the presence of imbedded grains of metal will still be present through the coralhad their been metal lined in the wood of which the coral attached itself to. All experts in coral growth with agree with this, and it has not been disputed by any experts that I know of. You are better off not pretending to be qualified by stating it cannot be when they are clearly saying it can.I will continue to address this subject in greater depth at a later date, but before then be sure to read these links for clearer information regarding these claims:Page not found - Anchor Stone International
Page not found - Anchor Stone InternationalMake sure you read them CAREFULLY so you are familiar with the sequence of events.nighttrain,

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You only have to see the light coral growth on the 'wheels' to know they are recent artifacts.

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But the coral growth is not light. Most of the chariot remains, along with the skeletal parts, are thickly covered in coral. The thickness of the coral is not measured from the outside of the wheel to the edge of the coral, but rather the thickness of the coral overall is what is to be considered, for the coral has completely consumed the wood away. Continue by reading my response to Arachnophilia to gather more detail.However, before you continue reading, I will provide some info concerning skeletons in a sea environment so that you may correlate this information into the big package of info that we (Buzsaw, Willowtree, and myself) have been trying to present:----------------------------------------------------------------
56. Skeletons in a Sea EnvironmentThe question as to whether a skeleton can be preserved for along time in the sea is justified. Let us look at the sea environment in the vicinity of the Red Sea.Off the Mediterranean coast of Israel, there is an historical place called the Maritime Atlit site, which is about 10 km south of present day Haifa. It is the largest and best preserved prehistoric settlement that has been found on the sea-bed, and the only one that has graves (56. The New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land (1993) E. Stern (ed), The Israeli Exploration Society and Carta, Israel.) The reason why the settlement is found on the sea-bed (8-10 m depth) is that it was established before all the ice from the latest ice age had melted. Many thousands of years ago, the Mediterranean Sea was roughly 30 m shallower for this reason, and the settlements which were on the coast at that time are now on the sea-bed.At this place 15 have been founding graves, which represent an era before the level of the Mediterranean Sea rose to the present day sea-level, and turned the area into sea-bed. The age of these skeletons (based on C14 dating of carbon remains around the skeletons and other organic material) indicates a period of several thousand years. Complementary dating has been done via other discoveries of ceramics etc. (56. The New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land (1993) E. Stern (ed), The Israeli Exploration Society and Carta, Israel.)In a sea environment, similar in salt content and temperature to the Red Sea, skeletons are preserved for several thousand years. If corals grow there later on, it is because the skeletal parts are exposed. If they are lying under sediment they will not become covered in corals.Altogether, it can be said that there is a large quantity of skeletons and skeletal parts on the underwater bridge of the Gulf of Aqaba. It is highly probably that these skeletal parts represent human beings, horses and cattle. Some skeletal parts are petrified and thus probably several thousand years old. Most of the skeletal parts are thickly covered in corals. The strange thing is that the skeletons and skeletal parts are collected in heaps, and in mixtures of skeletons from humans, horses and draught animals. Obviously, a number of humans, horses and draught animals lost their lives on the same occasion, and landed in large heaps. This event lies several thousand years back in time.Dr. Lennart Moller, The Exodus Case, p228, 229.Arachnophilia,

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i'm gonna go off topic for a sec, but it ties in.

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out in the carribean, they kept finding these classical greek sculptures. "evidence for atlantis!" all the crackpots screamed. they were in relatively shallow water, too. you could go dive and see them for yourself. how in the world had they gotten there?
turns out that rennaissance ships routinely used old, unwanted, greek-style sculptures for ballast, and had to dump them at a certain point in the transatlantic journey.

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a wheel at the bottom of the red sea means nothing. it's extremely plausible that it's from a ship of some kind.

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A wheel at the bottom of the Red Sea means everything, and it is not plausible in the slightest that they could be from a ship. These remains are based on the scriptural location of the crossing, based on the true location of Mt. Sinai in Gal. 4:25, and the description of Josephus. These chariot remains are in CONJUNCTION (imprint that word in your cabesa!) with SEVERAL skeletal remains INTERMINGLED in many places with the chariot remains.I will now quote Moller’s summary on the Red Sea Crossing section:THE EXODUS — A SUMMARYPart II consists of a long series of events linked to various archaeological finds. We have followed Moses and his career at the Egyptian court. The hypothesis about Moses in Egyptian history has been presented with examples from chronology, names, history, kinship, graves etc.The land of Midian, to which Moses fled, has been discussed in detail regarding its whereabouts. We have also followed the extraordinary events in Egypt prior to the beginning of the Exodus — the great march of the people of Israel. A number of important aspects such as the number of people, the route of the migration, what influenced the choice of route, encampments and aspects of time have also been discussed.The site of the crossing through the Red Sea has been described from both geographic, and technically possible aspects. Geographical names, pillars, and the point in time of the Exodus have been discussed in detail.Finally, the actual site of the Red Sea crossing has been shown to have a number of marine archaeological remains, from some sort of disaster. This disaster included a large number of animals, horses, human beings, chariots and wheels, which are lying on the sea-bed of the underwater bridge. Some skeletal parts are petrified which implies that they event took place several thousand years ago. Possibilities of identifying finds vary (because of the coral covering them), from being absolutely certain that it is a gilt wheel, for example, to having great difficulty in giving an opinion other than: these formations are different and curious. The finds are scattered over a wide area, from the west side (the coast of the Sinai Peninsula) to the east side (the coast of the north west Saudi-Arabia) and imply a very extensive disaster. With a length of approximately 14 km and a width of approximately 5 km, the total area covers 70 km.Altogether, these finds give a picture of a disaster that probably occurred at the time of what the Bible calls the Exodus: the departure of the people of Israel followed by the destruction of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea.The people of Israel are now on the other side of the Red Sea and on the way to their first goal, Mount Horeb (Sinai). Here await special events, to say the least.The Exodus now enters its second dramatic phase.Dr. Lennart Moller, The Exodus Case, p229.
---------------------------------------------------------------------Here is ANOTHER photo of a bunch of twisted wreckage on this same underwater bridge across Nuweiba beach: Figure 393: An object completely overgrown with coral. There are strange shapes of the object like a possible body of a chariot, a round wheel-like structure and a probably axle standing straight up with the possible remains of a spoke and parts of the hub.Visual demonstrations are provided to help the viewer properly identify the wheels: And here we can clearly see a pile of debris consisting of skeletons, weapons, and chariot parts. Notice the human rib cage colored in yellow, the two 6-spoked chariot wheels colored in pink at the bottom, and a host of other unnatural formations unknown to the natural coral world: Human Femur There is clear evidence of a massive disaster — the collapsing of two massive walls of water (probably ice) that sent a large army with all its men, horses, chariots, and food stock (cattle) to the bottom of the sea bed. Once again, let me stress: LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE.It is clear that there are just way too many odd shaped objects in this vicinity to be considered parts of debris from ships. It’s absolutely ludicrous. These are remains preserved by God for people just like you, who are doubtful like the doubting Thomas of scripture. However, what is even sadder is when after God shows these things to you and you see, you still do not believe.All of this reminds me of what Christ said:And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.Luke 16:31God knows exactly how much he wants revealed. It tests people to see where they are truly at, and whether they truly desire in their hearts to acknowledge an all powerful, loving God, to rule supreme in their lives. It is amazing how God works. He reveals just enough evidence for the honest person who is truly seeking to know the truth, yet He also allows leeway for skepticism and criticism. This system is calculated just right to reveal the true character of people.I know that God is giving you all hear an opportunity to reconsider and evaluate your lives and believe that these things have been preserved so that you might believe in the one and all powerful living God that is revealed through these discoveries, described in the sacred scriptures. Will you take this opportunity and say I can now see that God is trying to reveal Himself to me through these discoveries, so that I might have eternal life? It can be done, because it has been done. I entreat everyone to seriously consider the benefits of experiencing a complete transformation of character in your life. It will be truly a rewarding experience.This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-26-2004 08:59 PM

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~Lysimachus

Gwyddyon,

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You didn't specify when you posted that list which theory of Wyatt's/Moller's those scientists supported, I was looking for some clarification. I still don't have it, though. Those are listed as 'contributing' to the videos/book, but the descriptions don't really provide much clue, although they seem to suggest that what they suggest was some basic Egyptological research common to the scientific community at large. I'll clarify: which scientists have said that they believe those chariot wheels are a) existant and b) Egyptian chariot wheels from the middle of the 18th Dynasty? That is, after all, the claim you've made, that there are Egyptologists backing those finds.

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I fail to see exactly how getting a detailed list of all the scientists who say these things is going to help you any. Simply put, the scientists who took an interest in the Bible as being a historical document are the ones who went down there to see for themselves.The main ones would be Viveke Ponten, Lennart Moller, and Ron Wyatt.We even have World Net Daily confirming that Nassif Mohammed Hassan declared it to be of the 18th dynasty. However, we do not even need Nassif to confirm this. We can prove it on our own without anyone’s aid, simply for the fact of what the inscriptions tell us. Of all the inscriptions, it is plain and clear that there was only a SHORT period of time at the end of the 18th dynasty that 4, 6, and 8 spoked wheels were used simultaneously. You will find no scientist disputing this fact. Plain and simple.Page not found - WND The hub had the remains of eight spokes radiating outward and was examined by Nassif Mohammed Hassan, director of Antiquities in Cairo. Hassan declared it to be from the 18th Dynasty of ancient Egypt, explaining the eight-spoked wheel was used only during that dynasty around 1400 B.C.For more information, read my responses to all the others in my previous posts. There is just too much data pointing to the facts that I have been presenting.PaulK,

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I am very sorry but it is not MY repsonsiblity to stop you inventing ridiculous strawmen. If your position is so weak that you have nothing better to say but your pride will nopt let you back up and admit the truth of it then that, I am afraid, is too bad for you.

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To correct you I do not know if Nassef Muhammad EVER was awarded a relevant doctorate. Apparently neither do you since your only response is to suggest that he *might* have been awared a doctorate "next week". But the fact is that my evidence dates to 1980 and he did not have a doctorate then. Moreover you completely ignroe the question of how detailed an examination he was permitted to give it and why Wyatt was permitted to take the supposed wheel with him if it was a genuine and rare artifact.

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Sorry, this "You MUST accept what I say or I will lie about you" tactic doesn't work on me. I call it what it is. That you are reduced to such twisting confirms my suspicion. You have NO evidence worth presenting. If you had you would not need to resort to such dishonest tactics.

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This is what you call playing psychology on yourself. You defy all that I have said by taking words that apply to yourself, and give them to me. I have provided enough evidence, and MANY people have testified to the fact that this information is more than enough to not deny that the remains found at the bottom of the Gulf of Aqaba are indeed the remains of the Egyptian army that perished during the grand Exodus.Even Paramount Pictures admits it!!!!!!PARAMOUNT PICTURES IS CONSIDERING A REMAKE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, BASED ON WORLD NET DAILY’S TALK ABOUT THE CHARIOT REMAINS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE RED SEA!!!!!!!Page not found - WND 2004 WorldNetDaily.comThou shalt consider a modern version of "The Ten Commandments."
That's the buzz in the movie industry, as Hollywood is contemplating production of a third version of the Bible's classic story of Moses leading the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt.

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According to the Hollywood Reporter, Mark Gordon, producer of "The Day After Tomorrow," is already on board to produce the remake, and screenwriter Charles Randolph is slated to meet with Paramount Pictures about writing the story.

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"While a new Moses movie could tap into some of the same religious fervor that blessed Mel Gibson's 'The Passion of the Christ' at the box office, Gordon and Randolph are believed to be interested in fashioning a serious, research-based treatment of the subject," says the industry magazine.

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Talk of the remake comes on the heels of a WorldNetDaily exclusive report about claims of actual chariot remains from the ancient Egyptian army being found at the bottom of the Red Sea, some 3,500 years after the Exodus is said to have taken place.

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"I believe I actually sat in an ancient chariot cab," British diver Peter Elmer told WND, referring to his time exploring a submerged item in what he describes as an underwater scrapyard. "Without question, it is most definitely the remains of the Egyptian army."

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"The Ten Commandments" was originally released in 1923 as a silent, mixed black-and-white footage with early Technicolor film, directed by Cecil B. DeMille and featuring Theodore Roberts and Charles de Rochefort.

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More than three decades later, DeMille remade the epic in a 1956 Technicolor feature starring Charlton Heston, Yul Brynner, John Derek, Vincent Price and Edward G. Robinson. It was nominated for seven Academy Awards including best picture. Also, just go to google and search for this subject about Paramount’s consideration to remake the 10 commandments. This info about the correct crossing site is starting to escalate, and Ron Wyatt left a long-lasting powerful legacy!His work is living on, and although he is dead, the world will little by little begin to see that this man was right after all. I’m telling you folks, I know what I’m talking about. It has nothing to do with pridesimply knowledge that I wish to share with you all.Why Moller’s documentary hasn’t even been released yet, and TLC still has work to do. We most certainly have some mighty goodies coming within the next decade

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~Lysimachus

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WHY HAS THIS NOT BEEN THE OBJECT OF LARGE EXPEDITIONS FROM THE BIG RESEARCH FOUNDATIONS AND UNIVERSITIES?

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WHY IS IT NOT THE LEAD STORY ON CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, BBC etc etc etc.

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WHY CAN NO ONE ELSE FIND THESE CHARIOTS?

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WYATT AND COHORTS PROVIDED INFORMATION WHERE ThIS STUFF IS?

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HOW CAN A KNOWN FRAUD LIKE WYATT CON PEOPLE WITH THIS NONSENSE?

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WHY CAN'T THE WISHFUL THINKERS OUT THERE REALISE THEY ARE SWALLOWING A PILE OF BULLSHIT FROM A KNOWN BULLSHITTER?

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ARE YOU THAT DESPERATE AND WEAK IN YOUR FAITH THAT YOU WILL GRASP ANYTHING, NO MATTER WHAT THE SOURCE, TO BOLSTER IT?

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PATHETIC!

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YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY????? I'LL TELL YOU WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BECAUSE IT IS GOD'S TRUTH AND TRUTH IS NNNNNEEEEEEVVVVVVVEEEEEERRRRRRRR POPULAR!!!!!!!!!! THE DEVIL HAS THE MAJORITY OF THE WORLD IN HIS HANDS, AND HE DOESN'T WANT THE WORLD TO KNOW IT!!!!!!!!IT WAS ON CNN, 20/20, UNSOLVED MYSTERIES, AND A FEW OTHER WORLD NEWS SOURCES....BUT YOU WANNA KNOW WHAT THEY DID??????? THEY BELIEVED THE STORIES, BUT SIMPLY JUMPED TO THE NEXT NEWS SOURCE!!!!!!! IT SHOWS YOU THAT PEOPLE DON'T WANT MUCH TO DO WITH THINGS WHEN IT COMES TO THE BIBLE AND GOD'S WORD....BUT IF IT IS FANTASY SUCH AS WITCHES, DRAGONS AND WIZARDS, THAN IT TRAVELS ALL OVER THE WORLD WITH EASE AND PEOPLE FALL FOR IT.....THE WAY THIS WORLD HAS FALLEN FOR THE MOST STUPID FILM HARRY POTTER GOES TO SHOW YOU WHERE THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE'S MINDS ARE....IN THE GUTTER!!!!!!!!!!THIS IS WHY THINGS TO DO WITH TRUTH ARE NOT POPULAR, BECAUSE IT REQUIRES A "SUBMISSION" TO A HIGHER POWER...AND YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE THAT!!!!!!!!!!

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~Lysimachus

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First of all, You shouldn't be quoting Herodotus to confirm your exodus assumptions. Every serious ancient historian takes his claims to be totally exagerated. He probably wanted to make the Greek defence sound like the greatest feat ever accomplished.

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But once you start to think about supplies and other military coniderations then it's simple to see that the statement is totally wrong. Plutarchus statement is most certainly an exaggeration. It is most probable that Alexander was outnumbered, but not 20 to 1. Most probably 4 or 8 to 1.

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No doubt, you seem to be stretching my words. I never once quoted Herodotus to confirm my exodus assumptions. You seem to be inferring that I quoted Herodotus’ claims concerning the numbers as 100% factual. Did you notice that I had originally said that the majority of sources agree within an approximate range between 1.5 to 5.6 million? A number of 1.5 to 2 million military units under Xerxes was most certainly very probable seeing the fact that when Xerxes went on his expedition, he not only had his own Persian army, but he had the aid of the Medes, Cissians, Hyrcanians, Assyrians, Bactrians, Scyths, Indians, Arians, Parthians, Chorasmians, Sogdians, Gandarians, Caspians, Sarangians, Pactyans, Utians, Mycians, Paricanians, Arabians, Ethiopians, Libyans, Paphlagonians, Phrygians, Armenians, Lydians, Mysians, Thracians, Chalybians, Cabalians, Milyans, Moschians, Mares, Colchians, Alarodians, Sasparians, and the Islanders from the Erythraean Sea.And then we have the Persians, Medes Phenicians, Syrians, Egyptians, Cyprians, Cilicians, Pamphylians, Lycians, Dorians, Carians, Ionians, Ilanders, Aeolians, Helespontians all contributing ships for the invasion by sea!!These were ALL the nations involved in Xerxes’ expedition!! The whole point here is, the numbers were AT LEAST past the 1 million mark for military units. This is not including woman and children left back at the cities. I only provided the higher figures to show the diversity of opinions on this subject. Scripture even gives you a glimpse as to how big this massive invasion must have been in Daniel 11:2: [i] And now will I show thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than [they] all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.. This was prophesied by Daniel by the way, before it even happened!It might also be worthy to note that when we speak of 2 million people at the Exodus, this figure is not to be equated with the number of Hebrews alone. Most likely no more than 1.5-1.8 million were actually Hebrew. The rest were part of the mixed multitude (Ex. 12:38, Numb. 11:4 & Neh. 13:3) of which the scripture makes plain. These were of other Canaanite, Semitic, Egyptian, and mixed blooded origin that intermingled with the Hebrew population. They probably made up roughly 1/5th of the population that exited Egypt. We must remember, the Bible only speaks of 600,000 men, but does not mention woman. In my personal opinion there could even be the rare possibility that the term men being applied here is representative as human beings or individuals, but it is probably unlikely seeing Ex. 12:37 ends with six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. Assuming the bible is literally only referring to able-bodied males; we would have to add an equal number of women plus some children. This would amount to no more than about 1.5-1.8 million Hebrew individuals. This range is given based on the fact that the number 600,000 given in scripture is only an approximate value, seeing that the verse (Ex. 12:37) assigns the word about to the number.

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And, about your usage of iron on chariots:
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/trades/metals.htm

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Most scholars agree that:

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c.1400-1350 BC Forged (tempered) Iron comes into use by the Hittites.

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So, there could not have been rust coming from Egytpian Chariots, sunk 1446 BC. Only Thutmoses III and Ramses III mention (in documents) iron once, and both accounts concern gifts. There is no (or worthless amount of) iron production until the end of the 7th century. So, show me your sources, because these are highly suspect.

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I will let Hydarnes deal with this question in more depth. However, the answer is quite clear that the Egyptians employed enemy Canaanite chariots as trophies of war. The few pieces of excavated coral with evidence of rust stain only confirm this.

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Another note:
Since Moller's pictures show no scale, it's difficult to make a reasonable measurement. These wheels could be 4 feet wide! Furthermore, they all have thick rims and espeacially the last one simply looks ridiculous. There's practically no room for the spokes.

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It probably was never addressed because it was never considered an issue. If the size of the wheels were outside the typical range, it would have most certainly been addressed. I’m sure Nassif Mohammed Nassan would have noticed this instantly.As for stating there is no room for the spokes, I feel you are beginning to get somewhat nitpicky. It all has to do with how the viewer wishes to interpret one thing from another, and I personally do not see a problem in this area. The thickness of the coral contributes to making the room for the spokes seem limited. The wheel seems small and chunky, yet when I look at a number of reliefs, I see small chunky wheels depicted of similar nature.

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Final Question:
Where did you get this picture from?
[image]
Can you show a more detailed version or a link where I can see it?
Would be appreciated.

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Glad you mentioned it. I originally scanned in the picture from Moller’s book, The Exodus Case, since I had originally thought it was not available online. Come to find out, I found it in two other places, and in much bigger detail: I found this one here: The Hebrew Red Sea Crossing (Exodus)
And this one I found here: http://www.wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htmPicture of this relief was taken at Egypt’s Cairo MuseumAnd here is another one of interest: Also found here: http://www.wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htmThis message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-27-2004 04:52 PM edited to fix page width - The QueenThis message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 07-27-2004 11:57 PM

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~Lysimachus

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Come on. Most of us here are very familar with Wyatt's claims and realize that he is nothing but a fraud, and not even a very good one. LOL.

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Prove it then. I've seen the man speak, and I've talked to people who knew him personally. If you just look at his countenance, you can plainly see in his face that he is not lieing. He was a very humble giving man, and loved everyone very much. Critics did not bother him because he knew that he was doing what God had assigned him. He was not out to make money either. Evidence for this is based on the fact that when he mentioned the prices to purchase his material (videos, tapes, books, literature, etc.), he said that for those who did not have the funds to purchase his material, he would find a way for them to have it anyway (for free). But he entreated the audience to be honest about it.

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~Lysimachus

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Lys, please stop claiming a) that scientists are tools of the devil and b) that there is overwhelming evidence so our concerns don't matter, and actually answer my question. Which scientists, specifically (full name and verifiable credentials) have come out and said that they have seen these wheels in situ, that they are mid-18th dynasty artifacts, and that they are there as the result of the waters of the Red Sea crashing in on an army rather than chariots being lost overboard? Just, for once, answer that question without trying to divert attention with devil worshipping claims or comments about how it doesn't matter.

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I didn't say scientists are the tools of the devil. Only that the devil has contributed in preventing this information from getting out like it should have.You want to know which scientists with full blown credentials state that these are chariot wheels from the drowned Egyptian army at the Exodus crossing from the 18th dynasty, right? Your answer: None that I know of. However, it surprises me that you continue to be locked on this question, as I have answered this question in other various forms in the past. However, not one, NOT ONE full blown credentialed scientist has disputed these claims as proven falseeither. Only other non-credentialed archaeologists/scientists have disputed them.We have done our job to show you that there are historical documents out there that recorded an event. These historical documents have been assembled into one big book called the "Bible". Based on following this historical document as a road map, we have been able to identify locations based on old maps (where Midian, Mt. Sinai, etc. are).Based on mathmatical calculations on traveling distance, locations, authors such as Josephus, Paul, and a few others that I cannot remember off the top of my head, specifically account for the Exodus event, and describe the geographical area. Based on this, we are brought to Nuweiba beach, of which the long winding Wadi Watir leads us to.On this beach there was a large column erected on it. The inscriptions on this column had been eroded away since the column had been partially in the water. But across the beach on the Saudi side was another identical large column which had an inscription in Phoenician (Archaic Hebrew) letters stating:"Mizraim (Egypt); Solomon; Edom; death; pharaoh; Moses; and Yahweh.From this, we know that King Solomon had erected these columns in honor of Yahweh and dedicated them to the miracle of the crossing of the sea.What is rather breathtaking about all of this is that why would coincidentally chariot wheels, twisted wreckage, human, horse, and cattle bones be found lieing right on this underwater scrapeyard between the two columns? There can only be one answer. These are the archaeological remains of an event of which this certain particular historical document (do you remember that one document I mentioned?)recorded. Noneother.This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-27-2004 05:34 PM

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~Lysimachus

Here is so more info that you folks might find interesting.------------------------------------------------------------------
When Ron asked him how he knew this so readily, Mr. Hassan explained that the 8-spoked wheel was only used during the 18th Dynasty. This certainly narrowed the date. We began to thoroughly research the Egyptian chariot and soon discovered that the fact that Ron and the boys found 4, 6 and 8 spoked wheels places the Exodus in the 18th Dynasty according to numerous sources, such as the following:"Egyptian literary references to chariots occur as early as the reigns of Kamose, the 17th Dynasty king who took the first steps in freeing Egypt from the Hyksos, and Ahmose, the founder of the 18th Dynasty. Pictorial representations, however, do not appear until slightly later in the 18th Dynasty...." (From "Observations on the Evolving Chariot Wheel in the 18th Dynasty" by James K. Hoffmeier, JARCE #13, 1976)The author goes on to explain how it was only during the 18th Dynasty that the 4, 6 and 8 spoked wheels are used - and that monuments can actually be dated by the number of spokes in the wheel:"Professor Yigael Yadin maintains that during the earlier part of the 18th Dynasty, the Egyptian chariot was `exactly like the Canaanite chariot:' both were constructed of light flexible wood, with leather straps wrapped around the wood to strengthen it, and both utilized wheels with four spokes.

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In Yadin's eyes, the four-spoked wheel is diagnostic for dating purposes; it is restricted to the early part of the 18th Dynasty. It remained in vogue, he says, until the reign of Thutmoses IV, when `the Egyptian chariot begins to shake off its Canaanite influence and undergo considerable change.'

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Yadin believes that the eight-spoked wheel, which is seen on the body of Thutmoses IV's chariot, was an experiment by the Egyptian wheelwrights, who, when it proved unsuccessful, settled thereafter for the six-spoked wheel. So widespread and meticulous is the delineation of the number of wheel spokes on chariots depicted on Egyptian monuments that they can be used as a criterion for determining whether the monument is earlier or later than 1400 BC."(From "Observations on the Evolving Chariot Wheel in the 18th Dynasty" by James K. Hoffmeier, JARCE #13, 1976)
-------------------------------------------------------So, as you can see, Nassif's words were not off. Research confirms this.In addition, we are told in Exodus 14:6,7 that ALL the chariots of Egypt were taken, so it is not surprising to find the variety of wheels that have been identified. EVEN SOME WITH IRON WOULD BE THERE IF "ALL" THE CHARIOTS WERE TAKEN! WHETHER THE EGYPTIANS/ASSYRIANS HAD "FEW" CHARIOTS WITH IRON ON THEM, THE FACT REMAINS, "ALL" WERE TAKEN! "ALL"!This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-27-2004 05:50 PM

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~Lysimachus

Prince Lucianus,Arn't you even going to thank me for providing you the bigger pictures?

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~Lysimachus

Prince Lucianus

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Thanks for the picture. It isn't really helpfull, I hoped it would show more of the picture. Furthermore, I hoped it would reveal where it was from.

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I told you where it was from. It's sitting in the Cairo Museum, did you not see the words in Italics? I took a screenshot of full rendered relief in the Exodus video, JUST FOR YOU. (btw, it took me 4 hours to figure out after downloading software to take a DVD screenshot, ALL FOR YOU!), so you better appreciate this one
{Rescaled graphic to "100%", to restore page width to normal - Hope I didn't make the legibility worse. - Adminnemooseus}
Sorry I cannot get it any clearer, but I don’t think it is that bad.This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 07-27-2004 11:38 PM

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~Lysimachus

PaulK

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I am sorry to inform you that Lysimachus HAS touted this idea as fact - and HAS produced spurious "evidence" to support it. An obvious examples have been the "unique" alternation of names found in the 18th Dynasty Pharoahs - which is easily seen to be non-unique just by examining the list of Pharoahs he provided as evidence. Then there is is claim that the "Dream Stele" supported his case which relied on identifying the Throne Name as the nomen. Then there is the misrepresentation of the "birth myth" of Hatshepsut.

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Moreover Lysimachus has rejected contrary evidence out of hand, The best answer we get is to point to uncertainties (which somehow don't matter when he is making claims).

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Moreover he has not produced anything close to adequate evidence.

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I was not asking a leading question - I was pointing out plain facts and requesting an explanation.

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I have to say that I do not find an assertion on arkdiscovery.com that there is evidence convincing in the light of these facts.

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Nor do I find the claim concerning the "principle God" convincing. It seems that repeating names was quite common within a Dynasty. On Wyatt's hypothesis we could reasonably expect Ahmose, Hatshepsut and Tutankhamun to adopt the Amenhotep title - but they did not.

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Now I've already done some investigation and found evidence contradicting Wyatt's hypothesis. And none supporting it. If you can name reasonably accessible sources that support Wyatt's claim even in part then I am prepared to go further.

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On the basis of what I have seen the scenario is very far-fetched and can be dismissed without any hypocrisy.

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I find it rather shameful that you have been severely lacking in comprehension level, for if you will go back to near the beginnings of this thread, the word hypothesis has been repeated on a number of accounts throughout this thread. I have thoroughly provided reasons as to why the Thutmosis/Amenhotep scenario seems to fit, and you have ignored everyone of them. This has all been based on various scenarios and dating procedures that fit into the Exodus account, yet in many respects still holds merit as it holds no less errors than all the hypotheses proposed by traditional Egyptologists. We believe we have nailed only the mummies of Amenhotep I and Amenhotep II with 100% certainty, and the rest are extremely debatable based on X-ray analysis. This leads us to question whether there is such thing as a mummy of a Thutmosis, since if Thutmosis I became Amenhotep I, then obviously there would be no mummy for him. Next we see an extremely short reign of Thutmosis II, and we have evidence that Hatshepsut co-ruled with both Thutmosis II and III. Seeing that Thutmosis II was cut so abruptly, it seems to indicate that Thutmosis III took the place of the male heir co-regent, since Thutmosis II vanished (according to Egyptologists, died). Then we have evidence that Thutmosis III chiseled out inscriptions of Hatshepsut (possibly due to the relationship between her and Thutmosis II, Moses). But what takes place after Thutmosis III’s reign is rather queer, as the so-called successor Amenhotep II continues on the EXACT same premiseschiseling out the Hatshepsut’s names and continuing the EXACT same conquest as that of his assumed father, Thutmosis III. Another thing to note is that when you connect the reigns of the Amenhotep’s and Thutmosis’, the Thutmosis and Amenhotep that ruled subsequently to one another (which ever direction you want to go) never both had long reigns. We have either a case scenario where Thutmosis ruled for some short years and Amenhotep ruling long years, or the reverse. This seems to indicate some sort of segment within the big house (Pero). Various scenarios all over sources seem to question the successions between the Thutmosis’ and Amenhotep’s, as indicated quite elaborately by Edward F. Wente, Professor, The Oriental Institute, of which presents various schemes of the 18th dynasty successions based on the enormous amount of confusion and contention that persists in identifying the mummies:Page Not Found | The Oriental Institute of the University of ChicagoThe list goes on in quite length, but at this point I will end by stating that we now have evidence that there was an adoption involved with both Senmut (most likely the son of Nefure, NOT the other way around, as it completely defies Egyptian tradition of a mother nursing her son, plus the fact that the person holding the child is clearly a face of that of a woman, not a male. But Egyptologists in my opinion got it backwards) and with that of the child of Hatshepsut, as we have numerous inscriptions of a child growing up beside Hatshepsut. We see a long wall at Deir-El Bahir illustrating how Hatshepsut touches the hand of a god (=sexual relation). The next illustration shows her being pregnant, followed by a series of illustrations of a small boy growing up to become a teenager. This is according got the tradition to explain an adoption. Our hypothesis is that Hatshepsut’s son could have been Moses.Lucy

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Of course I saw it was from the Cairo Museum, but I meant was, which pharaoh is it representing! The name on the left seem to represent Thutmosis, but I can see no feature that specifies which Thutmosis.
About the picture. Although it does show 4 and 8 spokes being used simultaneously, it doesn't show they were used by the same people.
The 4 spoked wheels are fleeing from the pharaoh who's crushing them with his superior 8 spokes chariot.
It looks like a propaganda drawing, showing an opponent who is technically inferior to the Egyptians, crushed by the Pharaoh.

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Even if Pharaoh was chasing down the enemy (with 4 spoked chariot wheels), this argument is immaterial. The fact is, this inscription is given with an 8 spoke wheel of Thutmosis IV, and inscriptions elsewhere depict ones of 4 spokes during his reign. This is substantiated by the facts presented in the numerous sources I provided earlier regarding the evolving chariot wheels and Egyptian travel. You prefer to hear from the credentials scholars, do you not? Now that we give you them, this is when you seem to dismiss them in favor of your own theory that the 8 spoked wheel of the Pharaoh is representative to that of ‘power’ over his foes. As I can see, flip flopping is convenient when the overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise, does it not?

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~Lysimachus