What is the I in ID?

I would like to propose a challenge to what seems to me to be slipshod thinking on the part of Intelligent Design advocates. We have heard the point over and over again that they "see" ID everywhere they look.
I would like them to come up with a plausible mechanism by which this intelligence manifests itself in the ID they claim they see. I feel that this is only fair since evolutionary theory brings a mechanism to bear on its model.

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You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?

jarLOL thanks for the light touch. I expect that will be about as deep a response as I will get on the subject but at least we can have a laugh at it.

kofh2uQuote from Philip Johnson I want to know what the mechanism by which intelligence is able to manipulate things to account for design people such as Mr.Johnson claim is is necessary for the explanation of the "wonders of biology."

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You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?

I am bumping this to see if there is any interest in discussing this topic further.Hopefully there will be willing parties on the ID side of things.

RAZD That is,of course the way I am assuming it to be as well. However, as I do not want to put words in the mouths of people, I will await someone who is willing to define the means by which they can establish a model that can be tested against the real world and therefore meet the criteria necessary to assert their model of Intelligent design. Of course if they bring up notions such as faster than light travel they must have some means of explaining that this is in fact the way things are and not untestable opinion thrown out to deflect sceptical examination.Methinks I shall be waiting a good long time.This message has been edited by sidelined, 06-20-2004 07:49 PM

whatever Now the mechanism by which God made DNA?This message has been edited by sidelined, 06-20-2004 11:21 PM

whatever You are missing the point. How is God performing these acts? By what means does he accomplish the physical act of creating?

whatever What is the means by which God made us in His image?

pink sasquatch jar I enjoy the thought and effort that has gone into the discussion so far and not just by jar and pink sasquatch.However the prime paradox kind of rears its head in the above quotes.If we take the stance that there is or may be intelligence behind it all we are left with the necessity of understanding how that intelligence {for the lack of a clearer word} imprints that intelligence upon its design.I mean if we are back to square one and say its is due to magic of some sort then why would we even argue against any stance taken by people since,if we do allow "magic" into the discussion, any scenario is possible.I still do not believe we have resolved this aspect but merely wave it off to a deeper layer of reality's onion.
If we have up to the point of strings or membranes been content to employ a natural stance that this happened without any means of intervention then why do we not consider this the pattern that is present in Nature.Nature is at heart its own reason for existance.

MrHambre In the posting of this thread I was hoping to se if there were any mechanisms by which IDer's could show us {bhow design is implemanted[/b]. If I were the intelligence behind the ID then by what means do I even engage the rules in order for the universe to follow them? It is not like me taking a watch and winding it to allow a timepiece to operate.Again without accepting magic into the picture I fail to see how this can be done.Methinks that a great deal of the problem is that some imagine that intelligence is akin to an immaterial entity capable of acting upon the physical stuff of the universe just by thinking,which is obviously ludicrous.

jar A God still needs a means by which he does things. In order to create a universe that is material requires the ability to do so.The onus is upon people who claim that this is the case to specify the means by which they can state that such is even possible

jarGod says let there be light and there was light.So by this you are stating that God simply speaks and things happen? So his voice does what that causes the energy levels of electrons to now have the ability to emit light? How did he see or hear?

pink sasquatch Now that is a disappointing statement from you since that is a contradiction in terms.

jarI am sorry I thought you were quoting Genesis 1:3.If it was figuritive then just why is this description there at all? Why not simply end it with God created the heavens and the Earth?

jar That is fine but in order to understand the mind of God we need to establish just what that mind is.Is it an existing process of thought and,if so, we must understand how or even if such a thing exists.If it is like our own then it is the result of bioelectical processes. What are we meaning by mind then if not the same thing as we humans experience.I do not have a difficulty with your position I have a difficulty with the assumptions that you make without explanation of how those assumptions may lead up to something which we can test.