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Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: What is the I in ID? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
I would like to propose a challenge to what seems to me to be slipshod thinking on the part of Intelligent Design advocates. We have heard the point over and over again that they "see" ID everywhere they look.
I would like them to come up with a plausible mechanism by which this intelligence manifests itself in the ID they claim they see. I feel that this is only fair since evolutionary theory brings a mechanism to bear on its model. You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
jar
LOL thanks for the light touch. I expect that will be about as deep a response as I will get on the subject but at least we can have a laugh at it.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
kofh2u
Quote from Philip Johnson
"Intelligent design is the proposition that you need a source of intelligence in order to account for the wonders of biology. You do not see the designer directly, of course. What you see (are) the effects of design." I want to know what the mechanism by which intelligence is able to manipulate things to account for design people such as Mr.Johnson claim is is necessary for the explanation of the "wonders of biology." You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
I am bumping this to see if there is any interest in discussing this topic further.Hopefully there will be willing parties on the ID side of things.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
RAZD
Supernatural action, obviously, either at speeds exceeding the speed of light from a distant location or invisibly by an undetectable "hand That is,of course the way I am assuming it to be as well. However, as I do not want to put words in the mouths of people, I will await someone who is willing to define the means by which they can establish a model that can be tested against the real world and therefore meet the criteria necessary to assert their model of Intelligent design. Of course if they bring up notions such as faster than light travel they must have some means of explaining that this is in fact the way things are and not untestable opinion thrown out to deflect sceptical examination. Methinks I shall be waiting a good long time. This message has been edited by sidelined, 06-20-2004 07:49 PM
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
whatever
God made the DNA template Now the mechanism by which God made DNA? This message has been edited by sidelined, 06-20-2004 11:21 PM
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
whatever
I don't know, but it does say he made us of the dust of the earth, talks of the water of life, but whats almosts as interesting as the amount of compressed information in the DNA molecule, is that in the cell they say that RNA can unzip this compressed DNA information almost instantly to create enzymes, etc... You are missing the point. How is God performing these acts? By what means does he accomplish the physical act of creating?
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
whatever
It is kind of interesting, like the conversation of the Godhead, in genesis let us make man in our image, so all I can say is God made us in his image, God said (The Word?), and God made(The Father?)(Holy Ghost?), etc... kjv genesis 1:26 -27, etc... What is the means by which God made us in His image?
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
pink sasquatch
To grasp what is beyond branes and dark matter? Well maybe it is the designer... or perhaps a true Unified Theory of Everything, which might just be the intelligence in the design jar
IMHO, that evidence is seen at the basic rules level. Where that level is changes as we learn more. A hundred years fifty years ago I would have placed that at the molecular and gene level. As we learned more, it moved to the atomic level, to the four forces. Later, as we learned more it appeared the design was at the sub-atomic level. Now it might be at the string or brane level but I’m willing to bet, as we learn more we will find the design racing away to just beyond the very limits of our knowledge. I enjoy the thought and effort that has gone into the discussion so far and not just by jar and pink sasquatch.However the prime paradox kind of rears its head in the above quotes.If we take the stance that there is or may be intelligence behind it all we are left with the necessity of understanding how that intelligence {for the lack of a clearer word} imprints that intelligence upon its design. I mean if we are back to square one and say its is due to magic of some sort then why would we even argue against any stance taken by people since,if we do allow "magic" into the discussion, any scenario is possible.I still do not believe we have resolved this aspect but merely wave it off to a deeper layer of reality's onion.If we have up to the point of strings or membranes been content to employ a natural stance that this happened without any means of intervention then why do we not consider this the pattern that is present in Nature. Nature is at heart its own reason for existance.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
MrHambre
That is, how can anyone tell that these conditions were set intentionally and aren't just (literally) cosmic accidents? What would a universe look like if no purposeful creator programmed these conditions? In the posting of this thread I was hoping to se if there were any mechanisms by which IDer's could show us {bhow design is implemanted[/b]. If I were the intelligence behind the ID then by what means do I even engage the rules in order for the universe to follow them? It is not like me taking a watch and winding it to allow a timepiece to operate.Again without accepting magic into the picture I fail to see how this can be done. Methinks that a great deal of the problem is that some imagine that intelligence is akin to an immaterial entity capable of acting upon the physical stuff of the universe just by thinking,which is obviously ludicrous.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
jar
Why couldn't a GOD act, influence, manipulate, modify, create or destroy physical stuff? That's the kind of things that GODs do. A God still needs a means by which he does things. In order to create a universe that is material requires the ability to do so.The onus is upon people who claim that this is the case to specify the means by which they can state that such is even possible
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
jar
God says let there be light and there was light. So by this you are stating that God simply speaks and things happen? So his voice does what that causes the energy levels of electrons to now have the ability to emit light? How did he see or hear?
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
pink sasquatch
"an entity who does things without a means to do so". Now that is a disappointing statement from you since that is a contradiction in terms.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
jar
I am sorry I thought you were quoting Genesis 1:3.If it was figuritive then just why is this description there at all? Why not simply end it with God created the heavens and the Earth?
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
jar
One goal of Religion, IMHO, is to work to try to understand the mind of GOD. That can be done by learning the HOW involved in what we see. But that is only the HOW part. That is fine but in order to understand the mind of God we need to establish just what that mind is.Is it an existing process of thought and,if so, we must understand how or even if such a thing exists.If it is like our own then it is the result of bioelectical processes. What are we meaning by mind then if not the same thing as we humans experience. I do not have a difficulty with your position I have a difficulty with the assumptions that you make without explanation of how those assumptions may lead up to something which we can test.
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