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Author Topic:   Request for Carbon-14 Dating explanation
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 5 of 74 (106059)
05-06-2004 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by JonF
05-06-2004 7:41 PM


Re: Carbon-14 Dating Explained
Really excellent post, JonF.
Only addtion I would make that seems to get left out a lot is the size of the change needed for calibration. I understand that it is in the 5 to 10% range. So the uncalibarated dates aren't all that far off either.

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 Message 4 by JonF, posted 05-06-2004 7:41 PM JonF has replied

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 12 of 74 (106418)
05-07-2004 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Justin Clark
05-07-2004 6:16 PM


Re: More Questions
No outside factors are able to disturb or alter the rate of decrease. You said that nitrogen interacts with the cosmic rays to form C-14, which in turn is filtered in to the plants then to animals and so on. Can the level of nitrogen in the atmosphere change, for example when the Government destroyed that island with the nitrogen bomb
It was a "hydrogen" bomb but that's a nit. The level of carbon 14 relative to carbon 12 is what is important. The nuclear tests did, in fact, affect the levels of a number of radioactive isotopes C-14 among them. Using C-14 to date recent dates wouldn't make sense anyway since measurement errors might be as large as the date being measured.
Is the Earth subjected to constant amounts of cosmic rays? Or can objects such as meteors, comtes, space shuttles change thios as well. We know that pollution effects the ozone layer, which from my understanding is the filter of the Earth, so could this also effect the rate at which it decreases?
As noted before the rate of C-14 productin is not constant as you say. However, the degree of error that this produces has been shown to be small( <10%) by the various calibrations done. The calibarations also allow us to correct for this.
Meteors, comets etc are a very small affect (I'm guessing) relative to the cosmic ray flux that supplies the C-14.
{qsIn my opinion it seems as if carbon dating is made upon one maybe two unsubstantiated theories. The first is that the rate of change is constant and without variation[/qs]
This is not an unsubstantiated theory. It is the result of both measurements made, the checking of the results with known historic dates and the understanding of the underlying physics. The rates are not subject to change by any reasonable mechanisms.
Literalist sites have suggested that rates are subject to change by pointing to a couple of different actual scientific publications and measurements. They neglect (deliberatly I think) to point out that you might not think that turning the earth to a super heated plasma or transporting it to the center of a supernova are "reasonable" mechanisms for affecting the rate of radioactive decay.
The second is that we live in a controlled environment where one event does not always effect another. I do not question the methods at which people exponentially smarter than I used to come to a conclusion. I wonder if the ground work on which they base their methods is as concrete as many are lead to believe. Once again I appreciate your time and i want to make a point to mention that i am not looking for any arguments just friendly disscussion. Thank you so very much and I hope to hear from you soon.
Of course, we don't live in such a controlled enviroment. The introduction of addtional C-14 by nuclear tests is an example of that.
The issues which you raise have not been ignored. However, let's pretend that they have. Let's pretend that the physicists and archeologists involved with this have not been careful. You're suggesting that these things can throw the dates off terribly.
Why then do the methods work when used on things which can have dates assigned by other means? Why do the dates of tree rings correspond to the value you get by counting (to within a few percent)? Why do the layers in lakes that you can count correspond to the C-14 dates (to within a few percent)?
If there were unsuspected things influencing the dating method, why does it work in a very, very large number of cases and only get out of whack in cases where it is used carelessly or there are other difficulties?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 20 of 74 (107022)
05-10-2004 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by BobAliceEve
05-10-2004 1:21 AM


Dismissive?
CrashFrog writes:
It would be a little easier to "take it into account" if you were to actually provide the reasoning, equations, and caluclations you used to arrive at that figure, don't you think?
Where in that do you find anything that constitutes outright dismissal?
There are a couple of mathematicians here. Some others probably have enough to review your work.
However, without seeing it no one can comment they can only guess. I don't understand exactly what your plan is.
Having been on the receiving end of some number of "breakthrough" papers by amateurs I know it will be hard for you to get any attention. It may be that, if you do have something, getting it vetted here is your best bet.
Good luck.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by BobAliceEve, posted 05-10-2004 1:21 AM BobAliceEve has replied

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 27 of 74 (107119)
05-10-2004 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by BobAliceEve
05-10-2004 12:23 PM


Dismissive?
Posts 17 and 18 were dismissive, NoseyNed. Crashfrog's (16) was not.
Sorry, I missed that. Yes, they are dismissive.
I suggest that you consider the context. Many people have seen a variety of "proofs" of this or that. These almost all of the time turn out to be junk. There may well be the 1 in 1,000 that have some merit but when one hasn't seen any particular one the best bet is that it is one of the junk ones.
An addition part of the context is that a very large number of very smart people have worked with this. To suggest that you've found something truely revolutionary would be at odds with history.
Untill you show your work there is nothing for anyone to judge on. Untill then each individual is entitled to make a quick judgement call on the likelyhood of you haveing anything worth considering.
The comment about a model disagreeing with reality makes a lot of sense. There are too many real world measurements that have worked for a model that says they didn't happen to be given much credance.
As you might have seen in other threads the measured variation in C-14 production isn't more than 10%. For a first cut calculation you may ignore the variation and assume it is constant. To see this look for tree ring dating and varve counting and the correlation between counted dates and C-14 dates. These are found in:
Age Correlations and an Old Earth

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 31 of 74 (107178)
05-10-2004 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Justin Clark
05-10-2004 3:09 PM


Help?
The point I am trying to make, however, is that not one person has offered any help.
I'm willing to help with the limited abilities I have. I'm very sure that others with more ability will be glad to help.
However, he has to post what he has so far before anyone can do a darn thing.
Remember, Justin, for a number of people here this is not a new thing. It is just the umpty umpteenith time that someone has claimed some wonderful discovery. Almost all, nearly every single one of them is confused crap. What bet would you be willing to make on this one?
When we see something a more respectful comment may be possible. The most likely outcome is within a few hours there will be a dozen huge holes poked in the calculations.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 61 of 74 (107645)
05-12-2004 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Rick Rose
05-11-2004 11:22 PM


So?
I don't have it in front of me, but one solar flare on Feb 23, 1956 produced as much carbon 14 in a few hours as in a whole year of average cosmic radiation.
So what? As as been pointed out a bunch of times it is known that the C-14 production rate varies. The amount of variation is not all that large by the time it is mixed into the atmosphere.
The important point that can not be ignored is that, in spite of various things to be careful of, it works! The C-14 measurements corrolate with known historical events, tree ring counting, lake varve counting and all of these corrolate with each other. The corralations demonstrate that even with all the variations the methods work.
Until the corralations are explained by some other means we can be very damm sure that we do have a good dating method. Care to explain why you would think otherwise?
Input/output may not be steady even over long periods of time.
Yes, that has been pointed out and has been measured against known dates.
There are also other factors that can change the ratios such as past sea levels.
Where did this come from? What other factors? How do past sea levels change the C-14, c-12 ratio?
Now you're starting to make things up to try to cast doubt on the measurements while ignoring the corralations. Without explaining the agreement amonst different methods and counts you haven't begun to touch the core strenghts of the measurements.
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 05-11-2004 11:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Rick Rose, posted 05-11-2004 11:22 PM Rick Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 63 of 74 (107651)
05-12-2004 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Rick Rose
05-12-2004 12:22 AM


Sorry
Sorry I jumped in without catching up carefully.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Rick Rose, posted 05-12-2004 12:22 AM Rick Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
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