Afghan Christian released

God as defined by human wisdom. I mean, you said it yourself - your knowledge of God comes from understanding the Bible as it has been interpreted in the past, not as it is interpreted now.I mean if you were talking to God directly your view would have some merit. Why are you so blind to the fact that your views of God rely entirely on what other humans have told you about God? You can't even really read the Bible without another person telling you what it says. Or did you think Jesus spoke English? You're right. Both the "knowledge" and "science" skills apply your INT modifier, not WIS. (Sorry, Dungeons and Dragons joke.)

Ringo, it's just that I see democracy and freedom largely rejected in the Islamic world. In their place I see stone-age law, horrific repression of women and non Muslim minorities, clerics half running nations and demanding governance of those where non Islamist authoritarians are in charge. I see worldwide riots and furore over a few silly cartoons in an obscure Danish paper. I see calls for a genocide against Jews, a Christian on trial for apostacy where a conviction would mean death. I see poll rsults in Britian showing a large minority believing that country should become Islamic and that western society should be brought down. I see where three of the founding members of the largest and most important Islamic organization in the US, CAIR, are in jail for terrorist related activities. I see Islamist movements worldwide killing and screaming jihad as they battle Bhuddists in Asia, Jews in Israel, commit genocide against Christians in Sudan, bomb Hindus right in parliaments, burn chruches with congregants inside in Pakistan. And on and on and on. But worse, I see at least one Islamic nation pursuing nuclear arms with an outright statement of intent to use them to wipe out the lone democracy in the ME, the only place where Muslims, including women, actually enjoy freedom, and...this has not much been reported ...to use nukes to attack, in time, the US.And what is this all about? Only Muslims do all this worldwide. Only Islamic history shows this kind of non stop religious, kill the infidel, imperialism.The simple truth is this, and it's just as the gloabl Islamist movement tells us: The Koran's War Verses are the root cause of Islamist terror and war. And so it has been since the advent of the faith. To not see thefrightening breadth and scope and passion of the Islamist movement, and to not listen to them tell you what motivates them, can only be explained by denail.

But you see, that's the problem...I'm not speculating. I am listening to them instead. I have read their holy book. It is those who don't listen and read who are speculating.

Nope. Christian history too. And I expect we could find a few other sects who did exactly the same things to the extent of their "worldwide" reach.There is nothing new under the sun, my son. Nope. The root cause is intolerance.If your view becomes widespread, we'll see self-styled "Christians" doing again all the same things that you accuse the Muslims of doing.

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Not true. Most imperialism stemming from Christian countruies was about money and power, not faith.Intolerance is part and parcel of the Koran. And not just intolerance, but pathological, blood curdling intolerance. The Islamists themselves, this worldwide movement that has existed since the advent of their faith, tell you - just listen to them - that the Koran is the root cause of their movement.

You wrote: "If your view becomes widespread, we'll see self-styled "Christians" doing again all the same things that you accuse the Muslims of doing."What do you think my view is? I want to see human rights respecting democracies throughout the world.

Queen Isabella and Juan Carlos thought that it was their divine duty to educate the ignorant Indians of S. America, Mexico, and the New World. African Colonialism was started under the same excuse, in part.This potentially new topic examines whether or not current American efforts to bring democracy to the Islamic world and combat "terror"
could be construed as in any way synonomous with the European Colonialism?

there was, for sure, some religious sentiment that went with western imperialism. But it not the motive. Westerners came to NA looking for a quicker route to the orient, and stayed for minerals, fur and whatever else. It was about profit. And, no less significantly, the west's imperialism was a finite movement with an end date. Islamic imperialism began the day Mophammd set it in motion, and it continues to this very day...all motivated by the koran, just like the Islamic imperialists tell us.

Message 49It is unfortunate that I don't expect you to get a response that is equivalent to the time and effort that you obviously put into this post.I would hope that your opponents will respond to you point by point but I am not going to hold my breath.This message has been edited by Jazzns, 03-29-2006 09:02 AM

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

And that in a nutshell is the failing of most Christian outreach. That is a totally incorrect statement.Loving the Muslim neighbor means:

• when you go out to bring in the trash can, if their can is still out, bring it in with you for them.
• when you see them in the morning, say "Good Morning".
• invite their kids to your kids birthday party.
• as you go out to the store, and see him cutting the grass, ask if you can pick up anything for him while you're out.
• ask him to take your kids to prayer and if he will teach them about the Muslim Faith.

That is loving your Muslim neighbor.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Could you substantiate these arguments? In particular I'd like to see some support for your idea that everybody in the West agreed in advance on a date upon which to cease Western expansion. When was this concordance reached, and for what reason?

Of course i never said there was some kind of formal agreement in the west to cease imperialism. Rather, as democracy and rights respecting culture arose, imperialism came to be seen as a moral wrong. It would fit within the dynamic of democracies never going to war with another. It also is reflected in that it was the western world that was last to slavery, and the first to end it.

Just to let you know, I responded to your earlier reply to me in post #255. I think you mean as nations stabilized when they ran out of area to explore, and vast wealth to plunder (with little risk), they began to give up overt imperialism (until recently anyway).Democracies have gone to war with each other, and I am not certain what bar there would be to that. As much as I like democracies (or to be accurate democratic-republics) they are not beyond warfare. Why would they be?I'm also a bit perplexed regarding your claim that the "west" was the last to practice slavery and the first to end it. Could you explain and support that claim?

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holmes
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." (Lovecraft)

Bully for you.Don't you think freedom of religion is a "human right"? What about for the really loonie religions?You've never said, "Nuke 'em all off the planet," but what do you want us to do? You keep telling us to open our eyes and see the truth, but what do you want us to do when we see it? You talk about a "danger", but how do you want us to respond to that danger?It sounds like you're saying, "Rats spread disease, but I'm not suggesting that we should kill the rats."What are you suggesting then?

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I am talking to God directly in the Bible. It is God who speaks to me there. He moved the prophets and scribes to write what He wanted written. You have it backwards. And you do not have the right to impose your view of it on me either.