Why I Am A Zionist

I dedicate this thread to Brian who asked me if I was a Zionist.First comes definitions.
1. Zion is the city of Jerusalem.
2. Mount Zion is the Temple Mount at Jerusalem.
3. Messianic Zionism is that belief; that ideology of an eventual messianic kingdom to be established at Jerusalem specifically on Mount Zion. Many believe, as prophesied by the Biblical prophets that this would be a global empire by a king of the lineage of King David. Most fundie Christians believe this king is/will be Jesus Christ.Now the reason: I am a Zionist because I believe Jesus will indeed return soon to physically rule the world from his throne at Mount Zion.That's about it, folks. Whatcha think about that?[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 12-05-2003]

What do you mean he will return soon? Soon as in 20 years or soon as in 100,000 years? If it is soon as in 20 years I have to ask, what kind of car will jesus drive?

1. Rand, much has already been said about the end time prophecies and you may want to search out these on other threads, but they all attest to the fact that the time is near.
2. For a Zionist fulfillment to become a reality there must be a Jewish occupied Zion/Jerusalem and a Jewish occupied Mount Zion. This was accomplished in fulfillment to specific prophecies of the prophets as well as Jesus himself. (See also other threads) One of these scriptures is Ezekiel chapters 37, 38 and 39.

It's obvious Rand, since the generation that JC spoke to would still be alive to see this happening, then it depends on when the 2000 year old jewish guys are all dead.------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Hi Buz, But Zionism is not a Christian movement Buz and it has nothing at all to do with Jesus. The particular Xian myth is that the Jews will inhabit all the land from the Nile to the Euphrates, the Jews do not even inhabit all of Jerusalem.What is going to happen to the Muslims and the Jews who live in Jerusalem Buz, how are you going to help the 'prophecy' along when one of the most important Mosques in the world is in Jerusalem?Zionists HATE the Palestinians, are you telling me there are people in the world that you hate Buz? I do not think you fully appreciate what Zionism is. It has nothing to do with Jesus at all, and he has been returning soon for 2000 years, time to face reality Buz. I think you should ditch Zionism and go back to Xian mythologies.Brian.

As I stated, Zionism is about a messianic kingdom at Jerusalem. The central theme of it is Jewish messiah who re-establishes the throne of David. Whether it has to do with Jesus depends on whether Jesus is that messiah and whether he will indeed return to set up his kingdom as prophesied by the OT Jewish prophets as well as Jesus and the apostles. Jesus has fulfilled all the requirements so far. If he is indeed the messiah, it has everything to do with him and Christianity. The messianic Jews who reject that look for another. LOL! No, the prophecy states that the southern border will be the River of Egypt, near Gaza, not the Nile. This is what I believe and this is why the Jews gave back the Sinai to Egypt in the 1967 war. The fat lady hasn't sang over there yet, Brian. Hang onto your hat. The mosque will likely stand for antichrist to occupy first as prophesied. (I believe he will be a Muslim, possibly even Muhammed resurected.) Then comes the biggy earthquake when it crumbles to make way for the messianic temple to be built by Jesus and his people after he returns. Jews aren't the only Zionists. The true messiah taught to love one's enemies. This does not mean Christians support the Palestinian claims to the city and the land. I've debunked that adnausium here in town. He is not to come until the end time prophesies concerning the latter days are fulfilled. That's ongoing at rapid pace. Be ready, friend Brian, is all I can say to you.

Yours is a very narrow minded and bigoted interpretation, Asgara. An objective and honest reading of the entire context bears out that the statement was in reference to the generation who would witness the events prophesied. In fact if you go to the beginning of the discourse this was in answer to the questions of the desciples when they asked when he would return and the signs leading the 'end times'.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 12-06-2003]

If you are a zionist, then you identify yourselves with the likes of Ariel Sharon & co., the worst specimens of Homo sapiens ever produced. Zionists and Xtian fundamnetalists are the people who are most likely to mess up with the world because if they don't, they would look like the victims of a bad joke.The problem with the 'prophesy' is that people are working to fulfill that prophesy. What kind of prophesy is that? Sounds more like a plan for world dominacy to me.The Prophet Muhammad is dead, and he will not rise again ever. Who are you saying that he will be resurrected as antichrist? Oh yeah, Xtian fundamnetalist hate propaganda.

Hi Buz, A couple of problems here. The Jewish Messiah will free Israel when he comes, Jesus didn’t do this, he had his shot at it and blew it big time, and, if anything, Israel was even more persecuted after Jesus died. I know the apologetic, that Jesus will free Israel when he comes but this is way out of time.Also, it has been very well established here and other places that Jesus is not of David’s blood through Solomon, Jesus cannot be the Messiah.I disagree with your claim that Jesus has fulfilled any messianic prophecies, this is pure conjecture and unsupported claims by ancient authors, you have no way of substantiating their claims. I think messianic Jews view Jesus as the messiah don’t they? Is this your own interpretation because every single Old testament seminar/lecture I have attended that mentions the River of Egypt defines this as the River Nile. I am not saying you are incorrect, I just haven’t heard this before, do you have a source for this?Also, look at a map, look at Israel and look where the Euphrates river is, are you telling me that Israel occupies anything like all the land there? Forget the southern border for a minute, lokk at all the land to the N and NE, Israel only occupies a tiny percentage of the land promised to her by God, it doesn’t even occupy the whole of its most important city. Hang on to it for another 2000 years?You are getting very excited over the deaths of thousands of innocent people Buz, take a good look at yourself. You are getting worked up when you read about anything that is even remotely related to fulfilling this prophecy, and to fulfil it means that thousands have died, thousands more will die, and countless thousands have been thrown off their own land for no other reason that people choose to follow a fairytale book, it is criminal Buz, this is horrendous, no wonder we atheists are amazed by the disgusting behaviour of some theists. How can the world ever have peace when people are going around saying stuff like this about each other? Calling the prophet Muhammad the anti-Christ will not help much at all. I really wish that fundies would all bugger off to some far off land and leave the rest of us alone, the world would be a much safer and happier place if you all just grew up. I know they aren’t, we have crazy Christian fundies who are Zionists too. But do you really know what you are saying when you are claiming to be a Zionist, I don’t think you do?I think you maybe need to find another word to describe your stance. Take a look at the history of Zionism and then ask yourself if you really want to be associated with it. Bingo! So why are you and countless other fundies totally ignoring this, for heavens sake I am more of a Christian than you are I did ask if you hate the Palestinians, can you answer the question?Christians cannot support their claims to the land, it means that their little messiah would never come back if the Palestinians were not thrown off their land.Tell me something Buz, what claim to the land does Israel have? Why should Israel have the land and not the Palestinians? You haven’t debunked it at all, you have stuck your fingers in your ears and shouted ‘La la la la la la’.Anyone reading that passage can see exactly what it is saying, but it debunks your myth so you then scramble around looking for any loophole at all to keep your fantasy intact. But in your desperation you have to believe that it means a future generation, your world falls apart without this misrepresentation. You know another really sad thing? IF Christian extremists manage to manipulate world event in such a way that Israel does occupy this land, Jesus still wouldn’t return, the guy is dead and gone. But, when he fails to turn up, these people will simply find another excuse for him and then wait another few thousand years. They will reinterpret some passage or other to mean nothing like it was supposed to mean then they will say that the messiah won’t return until such and such happens. Then hundreds of thousands of other people will die in an attempt to get Jesus to get his finger out and do something, it is an endless circle of insanity. We atheists can only look on in horror at the inhumanity of Christian and Jewish fundamentalists who are deluded enough to think that their collection of ancient folk tales are meant to be taken seriously.Brian.

You and yours are just all bent outa shape that Ariel Sharon has done and continues to do what needs to be done to fulfill Biblical prophecy. The Bible stands true and if the world refuses to recognize that, the world will never understand what is going on in the Middle East.
Imo, Mr. Despicable is that other guy, Mr. Arrafat whose word, nobody can trust and who ruthlessly oppresses his own people, many who fear to criticize him or his policies. Andya, how many of your Muslim nations are providing relief to the oppressed, the hungry and the poor? A number of your nations are receiving food, clothes and relief from Christian based nations and organizations from those nations. The severely oppressed are being liberated in Iraq and Afganistan. In the Balkans Muslims were helped immensly by the US where Christianity is the majority religion.
Israel exports a lot of the finest produce to the world after having transformed a desolate land into production to bless the world. Muslim nations in the Mideast lucked out with the oil. Otherwise, what have they to offer the world?? That's a rather senseless notion, especially when the ones who are preparing the way for it's fulfillment reject him. Why is Ilam declaring that his spirit rose to heaven from the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount, when he didn't even die there?? Maybe some significance. Also Revelation 13:11 says the two horned beast which I understand to be the antichrist comes out of the earth. This possible resurrection of Muhammed is strictly hypothesis on my part based on the above. I believe I made that clear when I said it. I'm not saying that's how it's got to be.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 12-07-2003]

........And Brian, here I thought you knew a lot about the Bible. It was foretold in the OT and fulfilled in the NT that the messiah would die for the sins of the people. The prophetic fulfilled events on the world scene are preparing for his 2nd advent for messianic rule.Btw, nobody established refute that Jesus was not descended from David. LOL Only the minority of them who believe Jesus is the one. The others reject him and continue to look for another. Brian, I'm going by what the prophecy states. What better source??"Genesis 15:18 "In that day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, to your seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates."This is known as the Abrahamic Covenant and was confirmed to his son, Isaac and and his grandson, Jacob, through whom the promise was to go and to whose descendents it was given. It is his fundamentalistic followers of his teachings who have over the centuries killed millions of Christians and who in the Sudan alone in the last decade have murdered over 2,000,000, most of whom were Christians. Muhammed also denied that Jesus is the son of God. A bonafide Biblical Zionist is one who follows the Biblical teaching of Zion. The rest who claim to be are the bogus ones. That's their problem. I'll not judge on that. God knows, and that's what counts. I never ever said I hated anybody. I simply post the facts. You like to be the judge and jury, Brian.
Get over it. See Genesis verse above and comments following. ........And when he does show up as fulfilled prophecies are indicating, souldn't you be concerned about your attitude toward him and his after all the warnings/signs he's so graciously given us all???[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 12-07-2003]

In addressing the issue of prophesy this is what one pro -Israel website had to say on it. First it speaks of "land shadowing with wings,which art beyond the rivers of Cush". This area would be located south of Egypt I believe which speak to a direction other than the U.S.which is west of the middle east.Then they arrive in vessels of papyrus? Does anybody have a way to stretch that one out to fit the actual arrival of these people? Anybody know of any seagoing vessels made of papyrus?Is this some of the prophesy you base things upon? Is this what Israel bases her existence upon? Why is God such an unremmiting asshole to his 'chosen' people. They would have had a better go of it by amassing an underground militia against the pharohs and wiping them out.
What of the people that occupied the land that God 'promised' Moses' people? Remember what happened to them? Do you suppose that may have caused some of the conflict that extends to even this day? The prophesies are the politics of dust that plague a peaceful solution to the problems of the Arab- Israeli conflict. Regurgitating spiteful histories back and forth about the endless wrongs perpetrated one nation upon the other will assure the conflict will never end.Then we have this quote from the same web page. So it is obvious that God chooses to sit this one out and that without the intervention of the U.S.A. that Israel would fall and in all likelyhood be slaughtered to a man.God has never had anything to do with it only the intervention of other nations has allowed the nation of Israel to return.Where are the miracles?Here is a true prophesy born of the battlefield...""Strange friend," I said, "here is no cause to mourn."
"None," said the other, "save the undone years,
The hopelessness. Whatever hope is yours,
Was my life also; I went hunting wild
After the wildest beauty in the world,
Which lies not calm in eyes, or braided hair,
But mocks the steady running of the hour,
And if it grieves, grieves richlier than here.
For by my glee might many men have laughed,
And of my weeping something had been left,
Which must die now. I mean the truth untold,
The pity of war, the pity war distilled.
Now men will go content with what we spoiled,
Or, discontent, boil bloody, and be spilled.
They will be swift with swiftness of the tigress,
None will break ranks, though nations trek from progress."The Middle East will never break ranks.

Sidelined, no, your references aren't the ones I base my Zionistic views on. Please see post #3 for that. There are others, of course. Commentation on your references would take us too far off topic. Ditto for the war prophecy.As for the Colonel Levy quote from the Jerusalem Post, you make no sense atol by implying in your comment that God shouldn't use nations to fulfill his prophecies. That's a silly notion, indeed. Nearly all the major prophecies have been involving interaction of nations in one way or another.

HI, Well I have never claimed to know a lot about the Bible, and you are still missing the point.What you seem blissfully unaware of is this idea of fulfilled prophecy, you dont seem able to get to get your head around the problem that other people see here.Here is the problem, the people who wrote the Gospels knew the Old Testament, they see prophecies written in the Old Testament that are to be fulfilled by the Messiah, they are trying to prove that Jesus is the Messiah, and if he is to be the Messiah he has to fulfil these prophecies.What is to stop these people simply making up these alleged fulfilments? You do know that there is nothing outside of the New Testament to support these claims? The author made it up Buz, they want Jesus to be the messiah so they just write works of fiction. For example, if you didnt have the New Testament how would you know that Jesus was born in Bethlehem? Without the New Testament, how would you know anything about Jesus? The truth is, Jesus is invisible outside of the NT, and you are living in a world of circular reasoning, you want so much to believe that this is true that you would do anything to keep the fantasy going.Your fulfilled prophecies are not fulfilled prophecies at all Buz, they are works of fiction written by people who knew about the prophecies before they wrote about Jesus.Can you actually substantiate a single messianic prophecy that Jesus fulfilled? The truth is you cannot. But 2000 years too late and these events are being manipulated, it cannot be a very impressive prophecy if people are working to fulfil it Well there is no way to link Jesus to Solomon, even by the mistaken use of Marys genealogyI think you will find that the term Messianic Jew applies ONLY to those Jews who believe that Jesus was the Messiah, a bit like the Jews for Jesus crowd. Well I am going by that source as well, it clearly refers to the Nile, you are the first person I have heard that claims it isnt.What about the Euphrates, you conveniently forgot about that. And Israel has never in her history occupied this area, regardless of where you want to place the borders. So we keep killing each other then, what does this achieve except more death and destruction? Oh and Buz, the Christians are not exactly squeaky clean either, but two wrongs do not make a right. Why not follow Jesus teachings and love those that hate you? Oh we are back to one of these arguments again! You dont have to judge on that, it is pretty obvious! ‘ I dont believe that you do hate anyone that is why I had to ask why you associate yourself with these terrorists. You simply post what you would like to be facts you mean! LOL I like to try and keep Christians honest, it is a full time job Is that it?That is horrific, because the Bible says that it belongs to Israel then it does! LOLSo surely this should apply to everyone's religious texts Buz. What if the North American Indians produced a text that said their God(s) promised them the entire North American continent, should we all work towards making sure they get the land back?Buz, the Bible is an authority on absolutely nothing. A collection of texts, some about 3000 years old, saturated in myth and folk tales should not be taken seriously, people are being killed here, it isn't a game. Buz, these 'prophecies' are all in your imagination, you are making situations fit into these 'prophecies', everyone can see it except you and other fundies.You need to realise that Jesus isn't coming back, he was a nothing more than a travelling confidence trickster, he probably made a fairly good living out of it before he moved on to con some other people. But he was no Messiah.Brian.

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Well I am going by that source as well, it clearly refers to the Nile, you are the first person I have heard that claims it isn??t.

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What about the Euphrates, you conveniently forgot about that.

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Note I posted the scripture which says the GREAT Euphrates. I know that's now in Syria. So that makes no difference. As I said, "the fat lady hasn't sang" so to speak over there yet.That word 'great' is significant, imo. Note that in reference to the River of Egypt, it didn't say GREAT River of Egypt. The Nile is a great river. If you look on your map you'll see a River of Egypt near Gaza. I believe this is the only river in the region by that name. Like I said, let the others say what they want. It says what it says and means what it said.As to all your other yada, Brian, I'm afraid you haven't an ear for truth and I've done my part in apprising you. I simply haven't the time to go on and on and on addressing your weak arguments like the history of Jesus being made up. That's all nonsense and few objective people try to use it. Have a good day.