Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,916 Year: 4,173/9,624 Month: 1,044/974 Week: 3/368 Day: 3/11 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Afghan Christian released
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 302 (298936)
03-28-2006 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by ReverendDG
03-28-2006 3:08 AM


Re: Quote mining is Quote mining
quote:
i always find it funny that fundamentalists have no problem distorting history to fit thier agenda
Amusing, perhaps, but not strange. Fundamentalists develop great skills in eisegesis when reading their sacred texts that they can then use in examining the historical record. What definitely is amusing is how the Christian fundamentalists are now applying their eisegesis skills to the Quran to tell Muslims themselves what they must believe to be true Muslims. Heh.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ReverendDG, posted 03-28-2006 3:08 AM ReverendDG has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 302 (298954)
03-28-2006 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Silent H
03-28-2006 5:21 AM


Re: Buz's islam
Holmes writes:
Here is the ONLY passage which deals explicitly on how to treat those of a different religion...
Here are a few others among many unrelated to conventional war. The last sentence of them all at the bottom sums it all up. Muhammed's ultimate goal = world conquest by any means necessary to accomplish it.
Islam writes:
"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is one of them . . ." Surah 5:54.
"Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day . . . Nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay Jizya (tribute taxes) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" Surah 9:29.
"Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." Hadith Vol. 9:57.
"No Muslim should be killed for killing a kafir (infidel)." Hadith Vol 9:50
Koran 76:1-5
For the unbelievers we have prepared chains, fetters, and a blazing Fire...
Koran 9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah or the Last day, nor hold the forbidden, which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jiziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued.
Koran 9:73
Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their Home: an evil fate.
Koran 9:5
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
Koran 8:12
Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."
He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Mohammad) with Guidance and the Religion of Truth (Islam), that He may establish (make) it (Islam) superior over all religions. And All-Sufficient is Allah as a Witness." [48:28] Also, "It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth to establish (make) it superior over all religions even though the Polytheists hate (it)." [9:33]
VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Silent H, posted 03-28-2006 5:21 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-28-2006 1:01 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 135 by Silent H, posted 03-28-2006 2:12 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 137 by jar, posted 03-28-2006 2:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 191 by CanadianSteve, posted 03-28-2006 6:42 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 302 (298958)
03-28-2006 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by ReverendDG
03-28-2006 3:08 AM


Re: Quote mining is Quote mining
RDG writes:
i always find it funny that fundamentalists have no problem distorting history to fit thier agenda
1. This thread is about Islam. The history of Christianity is another matter. Nobody's distorting anything. The popes and bishops of Vatican City were not fundamentalists of the Christian NT scriptures, so you're not talking history of Christian fundamentalism.
The history of Islam was violence and intolerance from day one until the present to effect the expansion of the religion and to forbid by the sword the conversion of Muslims out of Islam by the fundamentalist leadership including government as we see in Afganistan and other Islamic nations.
2. The distortion of history we see in this thread, according to the documented historical record appears to be coming from the apologizers for Islam.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ReverendDG, posted 03-28-2006 3:08 AM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 03-28-2006 12:26 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 03-28-2006 12:34 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 141 by ReverendDG, posted 03-28-2006 2:41 PM Buzsaw has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 124 of 302 (298987)
03-28-2006 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Buzsaw
03-28-2006 10:10 AM


Fundamentalism is fundamentalism
buzsaw writes:
The distortion of history we see in this thread, according to the documented historical record appears to be coming from the apologizers for Islam.
At the risk of losing a fan, you can count me as one of the "apologizers for Islam".
I believe in a quaint old notion that "all men are created equal... without respect to race, colour, creed, etc."
Muslims who blow up buildings in New York are no different from Christians who blow up buildings in Oklahoma.
Those who quote-mine the Quran for their purposes are no different from those who quote-mine the Bible for their purposes.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 03-28-2006 10:10 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by CanadianSteve, posted 03-28-2006 6:45 PM ringo has replied
 Message 212 by Buzsaw, posted 03-28-2006 9:12 PM ringo has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 125 of 302 (298988)
03-28-2006 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Buzsaw
03-28-2006 10:10 AM


Lost cause
Thanks for joining in on the thread, Buz, but it's a pretty depressing hopeless effort, isn't it? It must be a supernatural thing this much blindness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 03-28-2006 10:10 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 03-28-2006 12:51 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 129 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-28-2006 1:03 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 130 by Chiroptera, posted 03-28-2006 1:39 PM Faith has replied
 Message 139 by Silent H, posted 03-28-2006 2:27 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 209 by Buzsaw, posted 03-28-2006 8:48 PM Faith has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 126 of 302 (298989)
03-28-2006 12:42 PM


Insane Xian, now there's a novelty
Seems that the poor guy has been declared insane.
There's a rumour that a psychiatrist asked him if he thought the Bible was inerrant, and he said 'yes'. The psychiatrist certified him insane on the spot.
Brian.

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Buzsaw, posted 03-28-2006 9:22 PM Brian has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 127 of 302 (298991)
03-28-2006 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
03-28-2006 12:34 PM


Re: Lost cause
Faith writes:
It must be a supernatural thing this much blindness.
Don't feel bad, Faith. Your blindness can be cured.
All you have to do is take the beam out of your eye.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 03-28-2006 12:34 PM Faith has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 128 of 302 (298995)
03-28-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Buzsaw
03-28-2006 9:47 AM


Re: Buz's islam
"Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." Hadith Vol. 9:57.
"No Muslim should be killed for killing a kafir (infidel)." Hadith Vol 9:50
these are hadith. they are not even sunnah. they are not words of the prophet. they are narratives about him that can be labeled as innovation.
Koran 9:5
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
you mean like
Exodus 17: 8 While the people of Israel were still at Rephidim, the warriors of Amalek came to fight against them. 9 Moses commanded Joshua, "Call the Israelites to arms, and fight the army of Amalek. Tomorrow, I will stand at the top of the hill with the staff of God in my hand."
10 So Joshua did what Moses had commanded. He led his men out to fight the army of Amalek. Meanwhile Moses, Aaron, and Hur went to the top of a nearby hill. 11 As long as Moses held up the staff with his hands, the Israelites had the advantage. But whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites gained the upper hand. 12 Moses' arms finally became too tired to hold up the staff any longer. So Aaron and Hur found a stone for him to sit on. Then they stood on each side, holding up his hands until sunset. 13 As a result, Joshua and his troops were able to crush the army of Amalek.
14 Then the Lord instructed Moses, "Write this down as a permanent record, and announce it to Joshua: I will blot out every trace of Amalek from under heaven." 15 Moses built an altar there and called it "The Lord Is My Banner."* 16 He said, "They have dared to raise their fist against the Lord's throne, so now* the Lord will be at war with Amalek generation after generation."
Exodus 32: 27 He told them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." 28 The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day.
29 Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the Lord, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing."
Leviticus 26: 7 In fact, you will chase down all your enemies and slaughter them with your swords. 8 Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand! All your enemies will fall beneath the blows of your weapons.
Numbers 21: 2 Then the people of Israel made this vow to the Lord: "If you will help us conquer these people, we will completely destroy* all their towns." 3 The Lord heard their request and gave them victory over the Canaanites. The Israelites completely destroyed them and their towns, and the place has been called Hormah* ever since.
...
21 The Israelites now sent ambassadors to King Sihon of the Amorites with this message:
22 "Let us travel through your land. We will stay on the king's road until we have crossed your territory. We will not trample your fields or touch your vineyards or drink your well water."
23 But King Sihon refused to let them cross his land. Instead, he mobilized his entire army and attacked Israel in the wilderness, engaging them in battle at Jahaz. 24 But the Israelites slaughtered them and occupied their land from the Arnon River to the Jabbok River. They went only as far as the Ammonite border because the boundary of the Ammonites was fortified.*
25 So Israel captured all the towns of the Amorites and settled in them, including the city of Heshbon and its surrounding villages. 26 Heshbon had been the capital of King Sihon of the Amorites. He had conquered a former Moabite king and seized all his land as far as the Arnon River. 27 For this reason the ancient poets wrote this about him:
"Come to Heshbon, city of Sihon!
May it be restored and rebuilt.
28
A fire flamed forth from Heshbon,
a blaze from the city of Sihon.
It burned the city of Ar in Moab;
it destroyed the rulers of the Arnon heights.
29
Your destruction is certain, O people of Moab!
You are finished, O worshipers of Chemosh!
Chemosh has left his sons as refugees,
and his daughters as captives of Sihon, the Amorite king.
30
We have utterly destroyed them,
all the way from Heshbon to Dibon.
We have completely wiped them out
as far away as Nophah and Medeba.*"
31 So the people of Israel occupied the territory of the Amorites. 32 After Moses sent men to explore the Jazer area, they captured all the towns in the region and drove out the Amorites who lived there. 33 Then they turned and marched toward Bashan, but King Og of Bashan and all his people attacked them at Edrei. 34 The Lord said to Moses, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have given you victory over Og and his entire army, giving you all his land. You will do the same to him as you did to King Sihon of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon." 35 And Israel was victorious and killed King Og, his sons, and his subjects; not a single survivor remained. Then Israel occupied their land.
Numbers 25: 1While the Israelites were camped at Acacia,* some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. 2 These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. 3 Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the Lord's anger to blaze against his people.
4 The Lord issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the Lord in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." 5 So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor.
6 Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle.* 7 When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear 8 and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, 9 but not before 24,000 people had died.
Numbers 31: 9 Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. 11 After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, 12 they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. 13 Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. 14 But Moses was furious with all the military commanders* who had returned from the battle.
15 "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. 16 "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the Lord at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the Lord's people. 17 Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. 18 Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. 19 And all of you who have killed anyone or touched a dead body must stay outside the camp for seven days. You must purify yourselves and your captives on the third and seventh days. 20 Also, purify all your clothing and everything made of leather, goat hair, or wood."
Deuteronomy 7: 1"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you. 2 When the Lord your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy* them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy.
Deuteronomy 20: 10 "As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. 11 If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. 12 But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. 13 When the Lord your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. 14 But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the Lord your God has given you. 15 But these instructions apply only to distant towns, not to the towns of nations nearby.
16 "As for the towns of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as a special possession, destroy every living thing in them. 17 You must completely destroy* the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 This will keep the people of the land from teaching you their detestable customs in the worship of their gods, which would cause you to sin deeply against the Lord your God.
do i have to go on? that's more and in fewer books. and it's all in torah which is the holiest of books.
enslave people who accept peace and kill those who oppose you. also, kill all idolaters and those who defile themselves with idolaters. sounds EXACTLY like you say the koran sounds. at least allah says that those who convert only have to pay tribute and not become enslaved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Buzsaw, posted 03-28-2006 9:47 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Buzsaw, posted 03-28-2006 10:12 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 129 of 302 (298996)
03-28-2006 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
03-28-2006 12:34 PM


Re: Lost cause
oh yeah, god's making us blind so that we can see your AMAZING powers of debate. wow. i'm so amazed. i think your god is making you blind to your own hatred and prejudice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 03-28-2006 12:34 PM Faith has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 302 (298999)
03-28-2006 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
03-28-2006 12:34 PM


Holy Herepton!
Well, God did remove our God sense. As punishment, as I understand it, for not believing in God.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 03-28-2006 12:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 03-28-2006 1:55 PM Chiroptera has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 131 of 302 (299002)
03-28-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Chiroptera
03-27-2006 2:35 PM


Re: The texts of Islam
No rational person reads her scriptures so literally.
So maybe we're all crazy, but the crazy ones who read the Bible literally don't murder people, while the crazy ones who read the Koran literally do, and consider it to be service to God.
No set of scriptures can be read literally and understood without understanding the historical contexts of the writings. That a few Muslims may do this with the Quran does not make this version of Islam any more true than what other Muslims practice and teach.
This is irrelevant since the literalists have the power. Violence is always power. Christians would simply die at the hands of the literalists and defeat them that way, but unfortunately there is no hope given to the moderates of Islam, and they have no motive to die for their cause.
The literalists also have history on their side. The tamer readings of the Koran are not historically authoritative. And I think you'd all be surprised to find just how many moderates secretly sympathize with the radicals, because they too think that force against the infidel is really what the Koran prescribes.
As such, none of this makes Islam any more incompatible with democracy and human rights than Christianity. It is true that, in general, Muslim society live under centuries of monarchial rule and then several centuries of foreign imperial rule. However, just as the Christians of the West have had to change their ways of thinking and their traditions to reconcile their religion with the ideals of the Enlightenment, so can the Muslims.
Wow what a bunch of propaganda you've swallowed. I'm sorry I don't have the energy to dig up all the evidence against such a foolish idea, but I know it wouldn't make a difference anyway as I've done it before and it hasn't.
I know I shouldn't, but I can't help myself:
It is considered to be inspired by God, just as we consider the Bible to be inspired by God.
This is what gives me hope. Just as the majority of Christians have rejected what one particular sect calls a "literal" interpretation of the Bible and have come to accept the Western notions of democracy and liberty, it is possible for Muslims, as a whole, to reject what a few fanatics insist is a "literal" reading of the Quran and may embrace a set of ideals that can be called democratic and consistent with the idea of human rights.
As a matter of fact it is not possible, it isn't happening. They are intimidated by the literalists, who have control of many of the mosques of the world, including in the US, and who control by threat of murder.
Yes there are many Muslims who want to see a change toward peaceful means. The point is that the literalists have the power. They also have historical validation going all the way back to Mohammed for their reading of their scriptures.
There is nothing in the Bible that is opposed to democracy at all, and I've given plenty of evidence elsewhere that it was Christian leaders who fought for and won most of the freedoms the West came to enjoy. This from a LITERAL reading of the Bible.
A literal reading of the Koran, however, only leads to oppression, tyranny and murder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Chiroptera, posted 03-27-2006 2:35 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Chiroptera, posted 03-28-2006 2:04 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 132 of 302 (299004)
03-28-2006 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Chiroptera
03-28-2006 1:39 PM


Re: Holy Herepton!
God didn't "remove" anything. Sin did. Too bad if some Christians get this wrong. Sin itself takes us away from God. We are out of touch with God because sin destroys our spiritual sense. It is being restored, however, in Jesus Christ, for those who believe on Him.
But you all pride yourselves on your rationality despite the sin-deadness of your spirit, and although your reasoning faculty is flawed and fallen also, we all retain it to enough extent that if we were true to it we would see the difference between Islam and Christianity and not make the false equivalences and do the ridiculous rationalizing of sheer murder that you all are doing on this thread.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-28-2006 01:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Chiroptera, posted 03-28-2006 1:39 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Chiroptera, posted 03-28-2006 2:08 PM Faith has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 302 (299006)
03-28-2006 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Faith
03-28-2006 1:51 PM


Re: The texts of Islam
Hello, Faith.
quote:
This is irrelevant since the literalists have the power.
Actually, it is relevant since the topic under discussion is not who or who is not in power and whether or not this group or that group is dangerous. The topic is whether Islam is inherently incompatible with Western notions of democracy and liberty.
-
quote:
And I think you'd all be surprised to find just how many moderates secretly sympathize with the radicals, because they too think that force against the infidel is really what the Koran prescribes.
Perhaps some would be surprised. I might be if I were to find out such a thing. Hard to tell how I would feel, sometimes, in a hypothetical situation.
-
quote:
Wow what a bunch of propaganda you've swallowed.
Yes, I did, but fortunately an examination of the claims of fundamentalist Christianity allowed me to overcome the propaganda and leave evangelical Christianity.
-
quote:
They are intimidated by the literalists....
The same thing was true for the Christian West, but those advocating democracy and liberty eventually did win. Maybe it won't happen in the Islamic world, but the Christian West does set an precedent that shows the possibility exists.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Faith, posted 03-28-2006 1:51 PM Faith has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 302 (299007)
03-28-2006 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
03-28-2006 1:55 PM


Re: Holy Herepton!
quote:
...do the ridiculous rationalizing of sheer murder....
No one on this thread has rationlized murder. I fail to even see how anything that has been written can possibly be interpreted as rationalizing murder. Sorry to say, Faith, but it is statements like this that seriously undermine your credibility.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 03-28-2006 1:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 03-28-2006 2:18 PM Chiroptera has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 135 of 302 (299008)
03-28-2006 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Buzsaw
03-28-2006 9:47 AM


Re: Buz's islam
Well you did it again. I asked you to do what I did and display the full passages, and instead you pulled up the same tired singular verses, out of context.
Heck you didn't even address the quote I posted about how a muslim is to deal with disbelievers. Its an entire sura dedicated to that question. At the very least you could have explained why anyone should dismiss that passage dedicated to that question, in order to act according to singular statements made in other sections dealing with other issues.
I might also mention you pulled from nonQuranic sources which means you are not discussing literal interpretation at all. You are specifically choosing judicial or temporal interpretation.
I do not deny that Islam (even literally) teaches that it is the correct and superior belief. But that is true of most religions and most especially the Abrahamic ones. That is not synonymous with...
The last sentence of them all at the bottom sums it all up. Muhammed's ultimate goal = world conquest by any means necessary to accomplish it.
Again I have no idea why you think what is said is any less detestable a fate than the one stated in your own Bible, but as it is, what you said is not what the Quran says. Let us look at a larger chunk of that passage. While you cited 8:39-42, that doesn't seem to be the case. You have chosen a quote mined section of 38-39 (conveniently leaving out the end of 39 and all of 40). Here is 38-40, from this site, giving three different translations...
008.038
YUSUFALI: Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).
PICKTHAL: Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).
SHAKIR: Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.
008.039
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
008.040
YUSUFALI: If they refuse, be sure that Allah is your Protector - the best to protect and the best to help.
PICKTHAL: And if they turn away, then know that Allah is your Befriender - a Transcendent Patron, a Transcendent Helper!
SHAKIR: And if they turn back, then know that Allah is your Patron; most excellent is the Patron and most excellent the Helper.
Even if one uses the same translation of the first verse as you did (though as you see here it is 38 and not 39), the rest do not literally state that world domination is the goal. This appears to suggest an end with the enemy refusing to fight them further, not eliminated from existence. But there is more to this anyway.
This is a large section so I suppose I can overlook not posting the entire chapter, but as I said context is everything and there is more in a chapter than singular sentences as you provide. Further in the same section, the author revisits the topic of muslims handling unbelievers in the context of this war...
008.060
YUSUFALI: Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
PICKTHAL: Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.
SHAKIR: And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
008.061
YUSUFALI: But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
PICKTHAL: And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.
SHAKIR: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
There is simply no way to read that as "if they don't want to fight then you must fight them until they convert or die". This does not suggest world domination, especially when taken literally.
Do you have an explanation for this?

holmes
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." (Lovecraft)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Buzsaw, posted 03-28-2006 9:47 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Buzsaw, posted 03-28-2006 11:22 PM Silent H has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024