God lurks among us...at EVC

My knower. No-one decides that they will be in Christ. God puts people into Christ not people. The old person is put to death. How could one be out of Christ again. Where would they go back too? There is no indication that I can see that they can be taken out of Christ again.We are exhorted to act like that which we are: sinners who have received a completley unmerited gracious gift. Judging others when you haven't a leg to stand on yourself (for you did not put you into Christ - He did) is not acting like what you are. But we are not threatened with having the gift removed if we don't comform to the exhortation. Disciplined yes, lost salvation - NO! Okay. People can be saved before they realise they are saved. Thats how it was for me. I hadn't read the bible to any degree but after being saved I read about all this stuff which was exactly what I had experienced. That was a factor in enabling me to believe it was the word of God.People might be saved but not have an assurance of their final salvation - they may think they can be lost if they don't toe the legal line. Not being assured doesn't mean they are not saved. A persons salvation doesn't depend on you in any way shape or form. That wouldn't be just. Any 1st year barrister could stand up at judgment and address the court "M'lud, it was riverRat that prevented my client from accepting you. I insist in the name of your perfect justice that he be released"A just Judge would have no option to to dismiss the case God is bigger than that. There will be nobody in Hell who doesn't deserve to be there. All have sinned, the wages of sin is death. There will be nobody in heaven who deserves to be there. "But now a righteousness FROM God is revealed. By faith. God gives Jesus' righteous to those who don't merit it yet do need it, by faith - because of his grace.If a person is saved it is because of Gods action (grace). If they are lost it is their own fault (justice)It really is as simple as thatThis message has been edited by iano, 26-Apr-2006 02:11 PM

That reminds me of the movie A Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy; especially the part played by John Malkovich. We were sneezed into existence and waiting for the Great White Handkerchief? or the Great Wipe? something or other.

Please explain.. Many are called, but few are choosen, or one could say that few choose.I agree coming to God is not merely a human effort. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Awesome!! I agree. Well, that's what I am saying.It's not the name that saves us, but the what Jesus did, and what you do in your heart. That does not release me from any accountability. Are you talking about the preist or the person he affected?

My knower. Explain how you know you exist. You can't - you just know. That my knower. And my knower tells me various things: God exists...and I'm going to see him - irrespective of my behaviour. My knower also tells me that if I consider his grace unto me cheaply, casually, start of Romans 6-edly, then his discipline I can expect - unto 'sleep' (physical death). It stands to reason. My reason (his reason in fact what with him living in me). One could not say. God has mercy on whom he will have mercy. He 'choses'* and 'predestines'* those who will be saved. We don't. Unless God 'chooses' us we are lost. Only if God brings us to the point of saying "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom" can we say "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom"We cannot chose to accept the gospel. What we can chose to do is reject the gospel. In which case we are damned. Our fault.Its a bit of a subject and at the end of it all you will only be faced with Romans 9 (where the issue of predestination is presented) where Paul responds to the natural minds (and EvC's) flurry of objections with:

quote:

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19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

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22What if God (not necessarily the case), choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath”prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory” 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

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Yet the cry will come: NOT FAIR. Wait for it rR. It has nothing to do with human effort - the basis for every single Religion in the world since forever. Except Christianity.* means that the word in the '' should not be taken on the first idea that springs into your mind about what that word means. The bible defines its own words. Understatement is patently your strong suite rR... Now I'm confused. Your not faith alone. You seem here to say you are not faith and works. Salvation by rR is but a jest. Pray tell: your doctrine in a nutshell (which would include preferably, a precise-as-possible description as to function of works w.r.t. salvation) "Thats what I'm saying" means a just Judge must release the accused because he was mislead by you? Go out an preach a false gospel so that folk can get off would be the obvious tool in any evangelists list of do's and don'ts on that basis.Deal with the logic of what you are saying in response to my specific conclusion above.Another question: what jesus did + what you do in your heart. What did Jesus do in fact? Is this the same as my RC bosses "he made the way open so that we can by our actions climb the stairs" viewpoint Neither. "But now, (note the significant change of tack by Paul at the end of Romans 3(note it by reading up to this point))a righteousness from God is revealed..."What part of you getting your righteousness from God do you not understand. (this verse is supposedly the one which converted Martin Luther)This message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 12:09 AM

How do you get from knowing you exist--which indeed you do know--to knowing God exists?

Its a matter of quality. You are probably aware of the Christian position which holds that when a person believes God takes up residence inside them? He moves in?I find that I cannot separate my knowing that I exist (which you will no doubt share) from my knowing that God exists (which you perhaps don't).The biblical picture of the relationship between us (Christians, the church, those in Christ, the righteous etc )... and God, sees us as the bride and him as the groom. And what is Gods purpose in marriage as revealed even back in Genesis? "The two will become one flesh"This isn't just a sexual reference but is modelled somewhat in the best human marriages you see from time to time, where the two are welded into one unit.And it is as I find it. I am welded to him as his bride. I know him because he lives IN me. I and him are as one flesh. What he thinks I think (or more correctly, will fully think on the other side of this mortal coil. Doe now I see it "through a glass dimly" - but sufficiently to make me desire to vist this God foresaken place)ps: "I am therefore I think" from another discussion we had. It reflects better the way I hold to it{AbE} as to quality - which I went silent on. I cannot separate my knowing I exist from knowing he exists. The knowing has the same quality, the same timbre, the same....its just, the same.This message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 12:45 AM

One way to read this is the way I responded above. "How does iano make the link?" "How does iano know?" Which I probably explained to less than your satisfaction.The other way to read it is: "how does one get...Which is another way of saying "How do I save myself...". Should this latter reading be the intent, then the key is getting to the point of realising that you can't save yourself. That you are totally dependant upon God to save you. But that again carries the implication that you have to do something to "get to the point" whereas that is not the position. God must be the one to bring you there."But how can I be saved if I have to rely on God to bring me there in the first place. What if he doesn't?"Welcome to the paradox. If he saves you then it will remain a paradox, the result of which (for any believer) is: "why did he save me and not another". The other side, as already mentioned somewhere here, is that if one is lost, it is only because they have rejected his offer to save. More than that is not given to us. A complete mechanism of salvation is simply not open to us in this world.All that one can do (even if it is him that enables it) is to respond from ones heart. Real simple stuff - and the very hardest stuff to admit to - even to self.This is my story seen in retrospect - if it is seen as part of your story that would be because he is drawing you - even if you don't realise it (you probably won't). Or you are not seeing it because you are rejecting his call. See what your gut (not intellect) says to this...- I am, when push comes to shove...a shit. I know in my knower that I am a shit - even if the world and his brother thinks the sun shines out my behind, I am a shit.- even if I can argue around the block about the objectivity vs. subjectivity of morals at EvC, I know in my knower that there are things which are just plain wrong. And that I do them. And that I enjoy doing them - even if, frequently, I wish I didn't do them (Roman 7: the man on whom the law has worked its course: leading a person to this revelation about themselves).-I have felt the insignificance of me (seas and skys) yet been repulsed at the thought - somehow knowing I had to refuse the notion that I was insignificant. I have chosen for the intellectual escapes: nihilsm, materialism, existentialism, self-cannabalism? Escapes which open their inviting, lying legs ( and which I knew to be such). Anytime when exposure to that excruciating sight proved too much.I have plunged the depths in order to escape that simplest of knowlege about myself. I do evil.His way of salvation is to convict. To convince. If you know what you are - simply because you know, then be glad. He has shown you that about yourself. The only prayer that will be heard which enables "knowing him because I know" is the one that says:"I'm in dire trouble. Its caused by me. Help me - for I have no one else to turn to"Such a prayer might not use those words but if from the heart, if from the knower - then respond he will.For he is like that...edit: change significant to insignificant
This message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 02:35 AMThis message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 09:43 AM

Your source for this exhaustive and definitive list?What is the basis of nondual Advaita vedanta?
lfen

The first of the 10 commandments: "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have any gods before me" If Gods way of salvation is that he is the one who provides it (or more generally so as to compare Christianity with all the Religions: God provides,without us having to do anything, that which the 'religion' supposedly offers and which is desirable) then it follows that a false god/energy/whatever won't offer it. It will offer the opposite. Thus not "Gods gift" but "Mans effort" nondual Advaita vedanta too. Googling brought up just 3 pages. Not exactly a mainstream religion but as per usual, the what-I-do-achieves-for-me-the-desired-result route is plainly evident.http://amma.hindunet.org/amma-l/archives/1101/0096.htmlA persons asks for clarification about meditation and is answered in terms that leave no doubt as the doing (and other action verbs) involved on their part. For example: To just be or not to just be. That is the question. Presumably the language used in this passage is something one has to spend considerable time immersed in before one has even a notion about what is being talked about. More doing.Presumably if one doesn't do the doing and ignores it completely then the desired result, to be gained by the doing, won't be forthcoming and the undesirable result, coming back as someone else again and again or whatever, is ones lot.At the very end this... Like all good lies (my apologies for the strong language Lfen but this is what it is), the better ones stick most closely to the truth. Here however, the Matrix splits at the seams slightly and we see outright Bible copyright infringement spilling out .edit to add linkThis message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 10:51 AMThis message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 01:45 PM

I realize I should have provided links. I'm not familiar with Timothy Conway. Advaita as you surmise is not a mainstream religion but remains available to those who seeks its understanding. I'm running out of time this morning to provide links that better represent the question I was asking.In the Eastern Meditative traditions there are those who treat it as a conventional doing that builds a result. To put it very briefly the teaching of Advaita is that the ego did not create itself and so can not end itself. That the ego exists by grace and I don't have the Sanskrit word that is translated by grace but it's the same idea. Advaita strongly differs from your version of Christianity but the point I was making was that there is no doing capable of creating Awakening and that the entire Universe exists by grace.You use hyperbolic sales slogans like the Biggest Hamburger in the Universe! Well no one expects advertisers to try to accurately pitch their products. And sadly often Christian prostheltzing has adapted the same technicques or maybe it's the other way around.You made a claim that you believe to be true because you want it to be that way. You've no evidence for it because it's a false claim. Not all religions use doing as a way to salvation. Many do but there are some that use alternatives though not exactly the same way Christianity does.I know you believe your religious beliefs are the only truth but that doesn't exempt you from at least treating other religions accurately. And your claim that your religion doesn't require any doing at all is suspect. I mean you don't have to listen to other Christians talking about it? You don't need to read the Bible or pray? If I were in a comma and God decided to save me would I know? Would you know? If I were in a comma and God decided not to save me and as I read you we are all lost only God in his divine fickleness has his favorites that he lets into heaven anyway. You should read about narcissistic character disorder and then examine your characterization of God.Here is a link to Shakespeare in everyday usage. I don't know about Ireland but here in the USA people still speak and write such phrases as "fair play", "foregone conclusions","It was Greek to me" with out citing Shakespeare. Many phrases from the KJV have entered into everyday usuage also. I don't know what your point is but the Bible is not copywrited. I think you know there is no infringement so I think that was an eager but stupid cheap shot on your part.
dummies - Learning Made EasyAs to charges of lying. I don't agree with Timothy's conclusions either. But given the state of early Christian writing. The way Luke and Matthew borrowed from Mark to begin with and they way authors names were used, and so on, well ... recall the advice given to the pot before you characterize the kettle.lfen

Hi Lfen,I'm off for a long weekend so can't read through fully what you wrote. I'll reign in the attempts at humor but I was coming from another thread where that kind of jousting is par for the course and isn't taken all that seriously.Although I believe all other religions to be a lie there is little profit in mentioning that fact. SorryA question at the centre of my post: if I do not meditate or do any of the other things which adherents of your religion are encouraged (if that is the right word) to do, will a person still ultimately receive the benefits of what the religion offers Nope. You don't have to do a thing.If a person is saved it is because God saved them. If they listen to the gospel it won't do a thing to them unless God effort causes it to pierce their hearts. If they are lost it is because they refused his working on them in order that they could believe gospel. They will have hardened their own heart such that the "sword of truth" cannot penetrateSalvation by his grace/damnation by our refusal. The only doing we can do is to lose ourselves.This message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 07:27 PM

How do you know this?

How do you know this? Did you meet God and did He tell you all this stuff?

Well, think about it then and come up with your own hypothesis, but why else would he want people to sing his praise, worship him and offer burnt offerings?He's omnipotent. If he created the earth and the universe couldn't he get up his own barbecue on a galatic scale even?lfen

The burnt offering is no longer a requirement - it was temporary in nature. Then was then. Praising and worshipping however is for all time. Ever think that his wanting us to do so might be largely for our benefit and not his? Don't know about you Lfen but consider the lesser human parallel: there is joy to be had for the p&w-er when the p&w-ing a beloved. Imagine not being able to?Apply the same thinking to a beloved God. I love God and it is good for me to have a means to express that love. He knows that sin in me will cause me to doubt and deviate and run from him so issues a command, just like he did with "love your neighbour". It is benficial for me and honouring of him to follow his command (for that is what Law means to a believer).Whilst it would be unhealthy for one human partner to worship (exhalting) another without reciprocal worship (for it would set one side up as a god) it is not unhealthy for the worship to be one way w.r.t. God. Worship simply acknowledges God as being God - something which is healthy to do. Patently such exhaltation cannot be two way - there is but one God. Praise on the other hand, can be a two way street "well done good a faithful servant" is praise indeed