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Author Topic:   Amendment # 28 to ban Gay marriage!
Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 6695 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 16 of 97 (85565)
02-11-2004 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by DC85
02-11-2004 9:11 PM


Re: Why is it important?
National health care is coming which should end all of that as Bush wants everyone to have access to good health care. It's going to be painfully expensive but I think our country is backed into a corner on this and socialized medicine is on the way. We have what's called "Open Season" in November of every year at which time we can choose our health care provider. If you take the time to actually read some of the stuff they print in these brochures, you will conclude as I that our health insurance program in this country is a train wreck.
I don't think that by the time Gay marriage becomes national that it will be of any effect from health care availability.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by DC85, posted 02-11-2004 9:11 PM DC85 has not replied

DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 17 of 97 (85569)
02-11-2004 9:30 PM


Its amazing they Listen to the same book that says a Women who commits adultry should be stoned to death. (ummm thu shalt not kill?)
They won't allow this to happen now would they?

Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 6695 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 18 of 97 (85570)
02-11-2004 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by berberry
02-11-2004 8:59 PM


Re: Why is it important?
Again, I'm not Gay so I never have experienced what you talk about as far as second class treatment. But I don't think Gay marriage is going to change society's mind about the Gay lifestyle. I think what is going to eventually allow Gays to achieve parity with the straight community is American society to continue on it's road of appathy. People in restuarants in Seattle don't get up and confront 2 men sitting close in a booth an holding hands because they accept the 2 men's behavior. They don't get up and confront them because they don't give a damn. I think that as America becomes more appathetic to everything around them, all of a sudden you will find that one day your Gay public behavior is transparent just as a mom pushing a stroller. Just look at what's on TV now verses 20 years ago.
Things like pressing for Gay marriage just seem to cause people to tense up now and create more negative feelings towards the Gay community instead of the appathetic view that is evolving now. And again, as I see the gut wrentching hurt that so many in the military are going through from divorce, I'd not wish even the possibility of that on you. I don't think the Gay marriage will have anything on the straight's as far as success rates. Social pressures, financial pressures, job pressures and broken vows are human issues. You'll not escape them and unfortunatly some if not many of your Gay friends will suffer the same emotional devistation as the people in my unit who are straight and divorcing. It's a very rugged road. That's from a straight perspective and from someone who's never walked in your shoes though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by berberry, posted 02-11-2004 8:59 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by docpotato, posted 02-11-2004 10:01 PM Lizard Breath has replied
 Message 20 by berberry, posted 02-11-2004 10:04 PM Lizard Breath has not replied
 Message 22 by Rrhain, posted 02-12-2004 2:56 AM Lizard Breath has replied
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 02-12-2004 3:03 AM Lizard Breath has not replied

docpotato
Member (Idle past 5047 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 19 of 97 (85580)
02-11-2004 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Lizard Breath
02-11-2004 9:38 PM


Re: Why is it important?
Lizard Breath-
If you are a straight person, you have the right as a human being to choose to gamble that the person you are with loves you and will continue loving your forever. You have the right to show the government that you are betting on this. They then reward you with immediate legal benefits such as the ones discussed previously. If you are a straight person and decide that this person you have declared your love for is not for you, you also have the right to say to that person, eh, sorry, you're not for me. You have the right to then go through the gut-wrenching and horrendous process of divorce. You have the right to make a decision and bear the consequences of this decision. None of these rights are allowed to a gay person in this country. Do you think that this person should have a different set of rules?
In my view, whether or not people *accept* the gay lifestyle is really irrelevant. If people tense up and have negative feelings about gays is also irrelevant. People tensed up when they saw interracial children at one time. I see it as the exact same issue as when some states would not allow a black person to marry a white person. So in both cases I ask, why should this not be allowed? What are the reasons? I can't even see any in both cases. Maybe you can help me understand?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-11-2004 9:38 PM Lizard Breath has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-12-2004 3:44 PM docpotato has replied

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 97 (85585)
02-11-2004 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Lizard Breath
02-11-2004 9:38 PM


Re: Why is it important?
I don't know how else to explain it to you, Lizard. I respect the fact that you aren't gay and can't understand this first-hand, but having a right is important, even if you never choose to exercise that right. Most gays will probably never marry anyone, but then most uneducated people will probably never vote. That doesn't mean they don't deserve the right to vote.
I think your complaints about the general state of marriage in American society would make an interesting topic, but they really should have no bearing on whether or not a right should be denied to a specific group of people.
Although I don't believe you intended it I take mild offense at your use of the word 'apathy'. You seem to be equating it with 'tolerance', and I don't think they're the same thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-11-2004 9:38 PM Lizard Breath has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 97 (85663)
02-12-2004 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by berberry
02-11-2004 8:21 PM


I just think that if the word "marriage" is so damned sacred
I don't think it is, though. Marriage has a civil meaning, too. I'm a married atheist. I want to be in a marriage, not in a civil union.
I don't think that the government's connection to the civil institution of marriage has anything to do with the religious institution, except for some rules that make it a little more convinenent for those getting married - i.e. you can be married by a pastor or a civil authority, but you don't have to see both.
But if the U.S. is a state, apart from the church, then what business does it have sanctifying anything?
Like I said, I don't think it does. The government institution of marriage merely enacts the protections that society thinks married people ought to have. But it's a separate thing from the religious institution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by berberry, posted 02-11-2004 8:21 PM berberry has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 22 of 97 (85665)
02-12-2004 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Lizard Breath
02-11-2004 9:38 PM


Re: Why is it important?
Lizard Breath writes:
quote:
I don't think the Gay marriage will have anything on the straight's as far as success rates.
Well, if we look at the other countries that do allow same-sex marriage, gay couples tend to have a lower divorce rate than straight couples.
Even in the US, the average same-sex relationship lasts longer than the average mixed-sex relationship.
And regarding the military, how difficult is it, do you think, to go through all the emotional devastation of what amounts to a divorce when you can't tell anybody about it lest you get court martialed?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-11-2004 9:38 PM Lizard Breath has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 02-12-2004 3:05 AM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 31 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-12-2004 3:33 PM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 60 by berberry, posted 02-15-2004 2:34 AM Rrhain has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 23 of 97 (85669)
02-12-2004 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Lizard Breath
02-11-2004 9:38 PM


Didn't you say you were married?
Why? Why weren't you two content to remain boyfriend/girlfriend forever?
I'm married, too. For a few reasons. Absolutely none of them were tax reasons. (This is maybe the first year either of us will have made enough to actually pay taxes.) Part of the reason is, I want to spend my life with her. And as a practical person, having listened when older people talked about marriage, I realize that there's probably going to be a time for us when tempers flare and the only thing that keeps a point of no return from being crossed is that piece of paper and these two rings.
And there's another issue. A wedding ring is like a magic ticket. Is my wife in the hospital? I can go in and see her, because it's restricted to family. I can deposit her paycheck into our account. I can do plenty of stuff because legally, we're able to vouch and make decisions for the both of us. There's a legal legitimacy to our relationship. Now, I could have that as just her partner, but it would have taken a lawyer on retainer and about 10-100 times what the marriage license cost. The marriage license was one sheet of paper. Who knows how many sheets it would have taken to get power of attourney, rights of survivorship, co-custody of children, etc. And there's no piece of paper in the world that would get me past the nurses to see my girlfriend in emergency care (god forbid.)
And it gives our relationship social legitimacy, too. Now our families and peers see us as adults in an adult relationship, not as teenagers playing at love. (Hell, there's a convenience issue - now we can sleep in the same room at my parent's house.)
Marriage has positive social ramifications that I'm sure you're aware of, if you stop and think about it, because they're what drove you to seek that arrangement for yourself.
And there's one more thing. The Supreme Court ruled that "separate but equal" was anything but equal. What is this "civil union/marriage" business if not "separate but equal" for gay people?
Things like pressing for Gay marriage just seem to cause people to tense up now and create more negative feelings towards the Gay community instead of the appathetic view that is evolving now.
They're going to have to god-dammed deal with it. There's no excuse to make gay people wait for the civil legitimacy they should already have, just because some bigots think it's icky. If black people had waited for apathy before pushing for civil rights they'd still be sitting in the back of the bus.
You'll not escape them and unfortunatly some if not many of your Gay friends will suffer the same emotional devistation as the people in my unit who are straight and divorcing.
Did you say you were in the service? I would have expected a serviceman to take the attitude that the possibility of failure is hardly a reason not to try.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-11-2004 9:38 PM Lizard Breath has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 24 of 97 (85670)
02-12-2004 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Rrhain
02-12-2004 2:56 AM


Hey, you're back. Missed you. (In a purely platonic sense. )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Rrhain, posted 02-12-2004 2:56 AM Rrhain has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 25 of 97 (85678)
02-12-2004 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Lizard Breath
02-11-2004 8:41 PM


Re: Why is it important?
Lizard Breath writes:
quote:
from someone who knows nothing about the Gay lifestyle
Since you have said this twice....
"Lifestyle"? Just what, precisely, is "the gay lifestyle"? You don't really think that gay people are all like the Fab Five or the cast of The L-Word, do you?
It's a life, not a lifestyle. A "lifestyle" is how you make time to play tennis, go on amusement park tours, and like Danish Modern. It isn't about falling in love.
Tell me, what is the "straight lifestyle" that accompanies the "gay lifestyle" and how do those compare to the "bisexual" and "asexual" lifestyles?
quote:
from the perspective of a Gay.
"A" gay? Who says this?
One thing to help you understand is that gay people are not some mysterious "other" or that gays have a "lifestyle."
quote:
I just don't understand why the Gay community would want to saddle themselves with the same burden instead of just co-habitating and being able to step back and laugh as the straight folk wind up back in court every time they change their formal partner.
Because when your spouse is sick and is taken to the emergency room, the doctors ask you about treatment because you're next-of-kin. If your spouse dies, nobody thinks to take away your children. You can receive Social Security benefits should your spouse die. If you get married to someone who is not a citizen, you can sponsor your new spouse for citizenship.
There are over 1,000 federal rights that come along with marriage. And that doesn't even begin to take into account the state rights that come along with marriage.
But in the end, why does it matter why gay people would want to get married? Isn't equal treatment under the law sufficient? And it isn't like straight people are forced to get married. If marriage is such a horrible thing, why do straight people do it? They can shack up and "step back and laugh" as easily as gay people.
quote:
I am at a loss and welcome your own reason why the Gay community might want Gay marriage.
Perhaps you should look at it from the other direction: Are you at a loss as to why anybody wouldn't want equal treatment under the law?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-11-2004 8:41 PM Lizard Breath has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-12-2004 3:28 PM Rrhain has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 26 of 97 (85679)
02-12-2004 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Lizard Breath
02-11-2004 9:01 PM


Re: Why is it important?
Lizard Breath writes:
quote:
but are there not legal remedies that can do virtually the same thing
No. The only thing that confers everything that marriage does is marriage. Yes, there are legal contracts that can be drawn up to approximate marriage, but they will always be incomplete, are much more expensive than the marriage contract, and are often not recognized by the courts, especially when taken across state lines.
Certain contracts can only be entered into by a married couple...it's called "joint" for a reason. And there is no way to achieve that status except to get married.
quote:
especially rights to surviorship
Nope. Not even a will is safe. Write up a legal will that leaves all your property to your same-sex lover of the past 25 years and your family can still contest it claiming that you were "coerced" and courts still to this day invalidate the wills of gay people.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-11-2004 9:01 PM Lizard Breath has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 97 (85757)
02-12-2004 11:16 AM


Do They Even Hear Themselves Speaking?
Bar none, the funniest political quote of the season:
Both President Bush and U.S. Sen. John Kerry, a Massachusetts Democrat, oppose gay marriage, though they support gay civil rights.
Pretty much akin to saying, "Oh, I'm against segregation. I just think black people should ride at the back of the bus."

"It isn't faith that makes good science, it's curiosity."
-Professor Barnhard, The Day the Earth Stood Still

DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 28 of 97 (85774)
02-12-2004 12:30 PM


Even though I am not Homosexual I would some how or another protest.... this is Just wrong.... I mean for a Country with freedom of religion. Certain religions seem to always creep into our government all the time............
They won't allow that judge to have the 10 commandments in his court Room(which he shouldn't) yet they allow other religious things to come in and stay in the government!

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-12-2004 12:37 PM DC85 has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 97 (85777)
02-12-2004 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by DC85
02-12-2004 12:30 PM


Whatever happened with that judge, anyway? Last I heard people were going to try and physically block anyone who tried to remove the ten commandments.

"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."
-Anya

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by DC85, posted 02-12-2004 12:30 PM DC85 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Rrhain, posted 02-13-2004 12:05 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 6695 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 30 of 97 (85850)
02-12-2004 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Rrhain
02-12-2004 3:11 AM


Re: Why is it important?
I don't know what your problem is with me but you are sure digging around dissecting what as I say as if you are trying to hold a trial here. If you're going to comment on how many times I said "lifestyle", then why don't you comment on how many times I said the word "the"?
Where did I ever say that I have the opinion that the Gays are all cut from the fab 5? And don't tell me that it's not a lifestyle. The homosexual community uses the term themselves so if you want to correct someone, go explain it to them.
The other thing you comment on is that I am supposedly saying that marriage is such a horrible thing. Again you betray yourself that you've got some personal vendetta against me. So what's your problem dude? I didn't ask whether anyone wanted to be treated less of a human being by the government. You are making a big stretch by inferring that by my asking why Gay's want legal marriage that I'm questioning their right as human beings to be treated with dignity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Rrhain, posted 02-12-2004 3:11 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Rrhain, posted 02-13-2004 12:32 AM Lizard Breath has not replied

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