Is anyone else fed up with Muslims complaining all the time?

I have trouble understanding how Christianity gets the blame for the Dark Ages when it was the only civilizing influence in Europe at the time, since the Roman Empire had collapsed.

Yeah you might want to look into when Christianity became a unified religio-political doctrine and when the collapse of the Roman Empire occurred. I'm not saying empirically that one had anything directly to do with the other, but I would think that the consolidation of power by Constantine (not the true Christian as he is painted to be) and his successors, despite (and perhaps due to) the schismatic relationship of early Christian groups, led to certain bishops' and then the Church's (as a unified entity) grab for power after the secular empire collapsed and any previous methods of thinking (Aristotelianism, Stoicism, Arianism, Universalism, Platonism, any form of Paganism, etc) were crushed and rejected as heresy, upon pain of death in order to retain power.So how exactly was Christianity during the period of 400-1400 particularly civilizing, especially in regards to the masses?

They get the blame because they weren't a civilizing influence in Europe. They spread and enforced ignorance on a grand scale. Other than consolidation of power under oppressive regimes, I'm not exactly sure where you come up with the phrase "civilizing" to describe it. Much knowledge and individual human spirit was lost and had to be regained.Essentially they broke it, they bought it.Edited by holmes, : longer/clearer

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holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Religion doesn't kill people. People kill people.
So, now. Will you let me keep my guns? (we may need them) Why be a bystander? Take some action to defuse the situation. You should start with those that most endangering us ... the radical Muslims. Teach them that they are worshiping a false god. Tach them Evolution and point out the flaws in their belief system. After that, you can challenge the Christians. But they are less the threat to end the world.

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'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

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You should start with those that most endangering us ... the radical Muslims.

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Let's see. Radical Christians are, right now, enjoying some success in taking control of state institutions with the goal of enforcing their religious beliefs on the rest of us."Radical Muslims" are, for the most part, intent on killing each other in the Middle East, have no means of projecting any political power in North America, and wouldn't even notice us if our army (and our proxies) weren't in their midst, usually to impose some agenda supported by the aforemention Radical Christians.All in all, I would say that the former is more a danger to me and the society in which I live.

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"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

I would request you back up your statements That's just ridiculous. We Christians are merely fighting for equal status in the country we founded. The evidence of this is the current tactic used Equal Access Act which states that if you give one group access in the public arena you have to give all access. The First Amendment is being abused to serve to try to sanitize Christianity from the public arena in America. The late Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Rhenquist succintcly summed up the situation on Wallace v Jaffree in 1985 stating the whole separation of Church issue needs to be revisited and the only idea then was not to have a National denomination of Christianity be the National Religion. The First Amendment is a unilateral protection of religion from government not the other way around. One can wear a shirt blaspheming God and it is free speech but if one has a religious symbol in favor of God such as a teacher wearing a cross then they are told to not wear it or be fired. What would you call 9/11? No means? How about the Spanish tunnel bombings? The recently foiled plot in the U.K.? How about Iran developing nuclear weapons and defying UN orders not to? How do you feel about the US defending the muslims in Bosnia and Somalia?the following is a private e-mail Professor of the U of Michigan sent to the demonstrating muslims on campus which I support:"Dear Moslem Association:As a professor of Mechanical Engineering here at MSU I intend to
protest
your protest.I am offended not by cartoons, but by more mundane things like
beheadings of civilians, cowardly attacks on public buildings, suicide murders, murders of Catholic priests (the latest in Turkey), burning of Christian churches, the continued persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt, the imposition of Sharia law on non-Muslims, the rapes of Scandinavian girls and women (called "whores" in your culture), the murder of film directors in Holland, and the rioting and looting in Paris France.This is what offends me, a soft-spoken person and academic, and many,
many, many of my colleagues. I counsel you dissatisfied, aggressive,
brutal, and uncivilized slave-trading Moslems to be very aware of this as you proceed with your infantile "protests."If you do not like the values of the West -- see the 1st Amendment --
you are free to leave. I hope for God's sake that most of you choose
that option. Please return to your ancestral homelands and build them
up yourselves instead of troubling Americans.Cordially, I. S. Wichman
Professor of Mechanical Engineering"So Chiro...you live in a country enjoying the freedoms supplied by the very people you claim to fear most. You are in a tree supported by the limb of freedom grown from the truck of liberty supplied by the radical christians you claim to be afraid of and are trying to saw off the limb that is holding you up.So in answer to the original post, hell yeah I am disgusted by the whiny hypocritical muslims and support Professor Wichman.

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"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

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We Christians are merely fighting for equal status in the country we founded.

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I don't know which country you are referring to. I live in the United States, which was founded over 200 years ago, so I know that neither you nor your friends could have been involved in that. Also, Christians here don't have to fight for equal status, since they have it and more.-

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One can wear a shirt blaspheming God and it is free speech but if one has a religious symbol in favor of God such as a teacher wearing a cross then they are told to not wear it or be fired.

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I was wondering where this was at. Since you're into backing up statements and all.-

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you live in a country enjoying the freedoms supplied by the very people you claim to fear most.

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Well, in my country, I don't see the radical Christians fighting for any rights. It wasn't them bringing suit against the Bush administration for holding people in custody without access to lawyers or bringing charges against them; it wasn't the Christian Right who protest the Patriot Act, or protested when the U.S. security agencies were wiretapping Americans without a warrant. In fact, the only thing I have ever seen the evangelical Christians protest is when they aren't allowed to use public money to promote their own religious beliefs.It must be terrible, living in your country. You should move to the U.S.

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"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

I live in the U.S. (just look on the side of the post just under my moniker 'reformedrob') and it was unquestionably founded by Christians. That might be a good topic for another thread. The Puritans came over and founded america for religious freedom. Even the states came about as reactions to religios freedom. The New England states were for reformed only...so non reformed formed the others which eventually included religious freedom for Catholics and others. The states at the time the Consitution was written each had a state denomination. There were over 200 founding fathers 12 of which were deists and the country was 99% Christian at the time.There are soo many cases of discrimination against Christians it is stupid...are you really telling me that you are unaware of the nativity scene controversies? I'll find the actual court case cites for the examples I gave of the T-shirts blaspheming God being protected but anything in favor being banned.And you horribly mischaracterize the fight going on right now. It isnt about getting public funds but about being excluded from the public arena all together.And the best you can offer about the OP is that we wiretap those who are having conversations with known terrorist groups? That we interrogate suspected enemy combatants who dont get Geneva convention war protections because they dont wear uniforms and subject them to the same conditions that we do our own troops in training? That isnt torture it is discomfort. And that is worse than 9/11 and other attacks by Muslims beheading journalists and women with more attacks planned as you read this? That is your response?I suggest you re-read the letter by the U of Michigan professor. And there is more to that story...the campus organization that was demonstrating about the cartoons is trying to get the prof kicked out for protesting their protest and national islamic organizations are joining the fracas. And you never responded to our protections of Islam in Bosnia etc...The original OP was right on as is the professor.Good nite and God Bless

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"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

But the Puritans most certainly did not found America nor were they anywhere near the first settlements, even the first English settlement. In addition they had NOTHING to do with founding the United States.Ain't facts a bitch?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Ever read the Mayflower Compact? Even the thanksgiving story is of the Pilgrims giving thanks to God. This is off topic but you are dead wrong, the victim of revisionist historians and I would love to start a new thread on this topic. The first settlements were by the Puritans who were seeking religious freedom. How about Jamestown? I also suggest you read the Supreme Court Case Holy Trinity v the US 1893 wherein the Chief Justice of the Supreme concluded after reviewing origin of the US, the state charters and constitutions of every state at the time, concluded with no dissenting votes that 'This is a Christian Nation'. Review the history of the founding of the original 13 colonies and their state denominations. it is a history of religious tolerance which now has degraded to the point that the secular humanists have decided that there is not enough room in the boat of tolerance and that the first ones in, the christians should now be thrown overboard.

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"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

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are you really telling me that you are unaware of the nativity scene controversies?

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How is this discrimination against Christians? Maybe you don't quite understand what discrimination means. Discrimination would mean that a Christian nativity scene was not allowed, but, say, a display of an important Hindu event was. That is discrimination. Discrimination means that one religion is favored over others. Or one religion is unfavored compared to others.=

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And the best you can offer about the OP is that we wiretap those who are having conversations with known terrorist groups?

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No, we're talking about wiretapping those that someone somewhere thinks might possibly be having a conversation with someone who might be a terrorist. That is what warrants are for. Warrants are to make sure that the officials have a good reason for their suspicions before they interfere with the rights of someone who might be innocent.-

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That we interrogate suspected enemy combatants who dont get Geneva convention war protections because they dont wear uniforms and subject them to the same conditions that we do our own troops in training?

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Rights are supposed to be for everyone. No one should be subjected to detainment unless the detainer can show that there is good reason for it. This is because (1) even with the best of intentions, government agencies make mistakes, and (2) government officials don't always have the best of intentions.-

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And that is worse than 9/11 and other attacks by Muslims beheading journalists and women with more attacks planned as you read this?

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I never said that it was. Maybe if you would calm down your posts would make more sense.-

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And you never responded to our protections of Islam in Bosnia etc...

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Actually, "we" never protected Islam in Bosnia. If you recall, NATO stood by while the Serbians massacred them. It wasn't until after the worst of the atrocities and the country was effectively partitioned between Serbian, Coatian, and Muslim areas that the Western leaders finally gave Milosevic the warning to stop it. Which he did, seeing how he had pretty much accomplished what he wanted.-At any rate, it would be nice if you would (1) give some examples where Christians are being discriminated against, and (2) and example of some of my rights that the Christian Right is working for.

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"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

The last several posts have little or nothing to do with the topic. The founding of the United States, modern-day controversies over Christian symbolism in public places, and discussion of the collapse of the Roman Empire, Christianity's civilizing or otherwise influence on Dark Ages Europe, and any other such diversion are out of bounds. Please take this discussion to either existing appropriate threads, or initiate a new PNT.Further digression in this vein may result in temporary opportunities for the individuals concerned to contemplate the meaning of "On Topic Discussion" as observers.The Judge Hath Spoken

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You assume it is NATO's job. It isnt those countries were not in NATO and it was the UN's job to do something. Had those countries been part of the NATO alliance they would have been entitled to NATO protections but they elected not to adhere to NATO standards, which would have helped prevent the problems in the first place, and as such had rejected NATO protections.This is exactly why i agree with the original post. Look at all the whining by and for Islam when they contribute little to the world. Somehow even though the US after UN permission went in to stop a massacre it is somehow the 'Western' Nations fault as if prevention is our job. If we do that we get criticized that we arent the world's police and if we dont we get criticized. And what we do is never enough or thanked.

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"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

Why is any of that relevant to this point? There was no OTHER civilizing influence in Europe at the time was the point. Europe was this mass of warring illiterate superstitious tribes. The idea that something had to CHANGE to bring about the Dark Ages is what is laughable. Europe just being Europe was plenty dark enough on its own.Yes, the ultimate civilizing of Europe involved creating a CHRISTIAN civilization, as opposed to the former pagan ones, and it became a very great civilization indeed. Heresies were OF COURSE rejected. Sheesh. They were HERESIES. Good grief. And in the end the best of the pagan philosophers WAS preserved, BY THE CHURCH. They brought them the gospel when opportunity presented, and the gospel brought concern for their fellow man. It took time in such a dark and superstitious heathen continent as Europe but it had its effect and a good one I would say. Too bad it's now being lost in favor of the same old heathen paganisms.

Nonsense. See my post to Jaderis above, Message 134.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.