immigrants

yes, your time. but what about the time of everyone else who works there? there are 300k employees at ford. 300k x $90.... i know that's an exaggeration but true. maybe 20 people work on any one car? so that's 90 x 20 and 1800 off each car.of course there's advertising, taxes, licensing, lawyers, recalls, materials, facilities, fines (no doubt they break a few laws here and there...), pensions...

that's mildly inaccurate. it wasn't that they couldn't afford to pay wages, it's that no one was willing to do the work for the wages they offered and so many black moved away. slavery actually cost more than wages because they had to feed, house, and 'clothe' enough people to work the plantation. minimum wage now is way less. and that's what most migrant farm workers make. they make minimum wage or sometimes pay per bushel depending which is more.
the reason they fought for slavery was that they were so used to their way of life that they simply couldn't imagine budging. moreover, they couldn't afford to lose workers to free will because everything they needed had to be imported since the north prevented the south from developing industry. their battle was against free will, not wages.

...it was not my intent to diminish. Only to point out that you were overlooking the accomplishments of many other civilizations. I suggest that is quite open to debate. ..and yet you did say below that the very 'notion' of democracy was Christian in origin. That's not going to work for you. I was educated in Canada.

I never said othwerwise.

...to bring the discussion back to the topic of illegal immigration (I note that the creator of this thread just couldn't bring himself/herself to put the word "illegal" in front of "immigration", but that is what this thread is all about ... "illegal aliens") I was expecting you to be deluged with PC and xenophobia accusations on that statement, but it seemed to slide by as everyone jumped on the attack of Christian influence. I agree that the illegal aliens are bringing with them a culture that is not very successful with their governance (corruption) and economy. And, with the vast numbers of Latinos already here, they do not need to assimilate; they just are expanding Mexico into America, bringing crime and corruption with them. This will drag USA further down.Some cultures are more successful than others. For example, Germany and Japan were severly damaged and disrupted after WWII, and yet they not only recovered, but zoomed past other countries with their economy (and their crime rate remains fairly low compared to most other countries). There is a higher education and work ethic in the successful countries, than in places like Mexico.

I never said other civilizations have not created, only that the west has achieved so much more - and so it has.There is simply no way to rationally deny that the NT is essentially a work of peace, while, in contrast, the Koran is a mixed bag of peace and a call to eternal war until all the world is conquered for Allah, and subjugated or made to convert. Mass killing to accomplish this is fine. And then there is Sharia Law.As to the “very notion” of democracy... If I attributed it to the Christian west, then I misspoke. But the notion of liberal democracy - and that’s probably what I wrote - did arise from the Christian west.

I agree with you almost entirely, including on that we are off topic, and that I might have anticipated to be jumped on for my supposition as to mexican voting patterns.The problem is less work ethic than that a) native South Americans tend to vote socialist, while European South Americans tend to maintain power through corrupt politics, and b) as you said, the education system is very weak. In fact, the majority of mexicans who come to the US are willing to work very hard (maybe that's some kind of self-selection process). But they will easily be seduced by socialist rhetoric and, before long, join the culture of entitlement. Indeed, we see portensions of that in the marches and increasing demands for Spanish education, Spanish contacts with government, demands for citizenship despite having entered illegally, demands to allow any over the border who want to come, righteous condemnantion of any efforts to control the borders, etc. This is so outrageous and audacious that it would be hard to parody.While the japanese are unlikely to ever go the socialist route, the Germans have begun to. And that is why their economy is in trouble. Do they still wotk hard? I don't know, but they sure get a lot of time off, and Germans cars, to mention one product, have become notoriously unreliable. Maybe that's management's fault. Regardless, the seeds of decline have well taken root.

That's fine Steve, I'll concede that as evidenced by the Magna Carta.
But in that case, I wonder if you or TC could explain how it is that you conservatives have become so anti-'liberal' of late. The attitudes you guys have toward immigrants is anything but liberal. I don't see much understanding or empathy from your side - just protectionist sentiment, like somehow it is going to cost you something personally to make any kind of allowances for new immigrants. And xenophobic responses to cultural differences, other languages, etc. Unless you guys are Native Americans, you are descended from immigrants yourselves.

Seemed appropriate in this thread to remind folk of that line from “The New Colossus" a poem by the American Emma Lazarus.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

First, here's how I became conservative: The left went so radical that it deserted me. I am essentially what I was in 1980, but the left went into high gear towards extremism. Conservatives, meanwhile, became what liberals were in 1980.Second, I do not oppose immigration. What i oppose is uncontrolled illegal immigration.

IIRC Canada has a citizenship certificate. You must show that you are a citizen before:

• vote.
• apply for certain jobs.
• apply to obtain certain government entitlements.

So you seem to have some means of identifying who is and who is not a citizen.There currently is no uniform way to determine if someone is a citizen in the US. Legal aliens have a Green Card. So is the lack of a Green Card an indication that you are a US citizen?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Funny, when I lived in Canada (I haven't since 1995) I considered myself a slightly right-of-center conservative, largely because I opposed a lot of overly generous social programs that seemed to reward too many unproductive people and create a culture of instutional dependency, although short of what you guys seem to be projecting with your 'culture of entitlement'.
Now, in the States, I think conservative factions are verging on fascism and I am very much on the left side of center when I look at our state of affairs here. I do not favor socialism in any form, but the right is so radical here I cannot support it. I also oppose illegal immigration but I view the underlying causes as much broader than you guys are making out. I am also not willing to stereotype immigrants as 'unemployed criminals' even if they are here illegally - nor am I as willing as you to criminalize and punish them. America now seems a long way removed from that country reflected in Jar's quote below, and that was a characterization considered admirable by all at one time.

Jar,
For the umpteenth time.... this topic is about ILLEGAL aliens.
We do not have a problem with LEGAL immigration, whether they come from Mexico or Mars.Ellis island processed many and rejected many. American did not open its doors freely to anyone to just walk in.

I didn't know that about my own country. That's interesting. Thanks.

Given Bush's huge deficits, increased social program spending, tolerance of mass illegal immigration, I don't see how you can deduce right wing radicalism. Of course, as there are anywhere in the political spectrum, there are extremists. But the rank and file American right wing is, in fact, quite moderate, surprisingly so.