Haggard Scandal

Just to make it easy, you don't have to respond to me at all. I was simply trying to calm you down a bit by putting it into the correct context. He himself may view the comparison to be hyperbolic in nature, that would only work to his advantage.In any case it wasn't a direct comparison, which seemed to be how you were taking it.Just try to keep that in mind. And enjoy the game!

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holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

How is this different from what you do?

You might want to study those verses you provided a little closer and not leave out rest:Matthew 25: 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."There are two groups of people here. One group will not be expecting their good deeds to be good enough. And the other will be shocked at how little their deeds meant.

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

I can see that you are a homosexual and that I offended you. You misinterpreted my post. We are discussing morals. If homosexual marriage is okay, relatively speaking, then so is marriage between a man and a child or a woman and a dog. Do you understand? I'm not equivocating homosexuals to dogs. I'm merely showing that moral relativism is a bit absurd when you view it in these contexts.Actually, the mere fact that it upset you only solidifies my argument all the more. Berberry, I don't know if I have exceptionally thick skin or if I take, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" to heart. In either case, I learned that I can't stop people from saying mean and nasty things about me. It seems unfathomable that somebody could scourge and bludgeon Jesus to death, but it happened. How much more indignation will I be treated as a fallible man?The bottom line is, I was not referring to gays as dogs and children. I'm sorry if I had anything to do with that confusion.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

So you are a good person. That's terrific!Mark 10:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.In other words, Jesus said, "Do you really know who I am, or are you patronizing me?"Psalm 14:3
All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.Psalm 53:3
Everyone has turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.Except tudwell? For he is the christ and will save his people?

And yet you use absolute standards to convey that there are no absolute standards which would make your assessment absolutely wrong.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

No. You are misreading.Those who do (the righteous) inherit the kingdom. Those who don't do are condemned.There is no mention of "how much" they do.Jesus clearly said that righteousness - i.e. morality - comes from actions only.

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nemesis_juggernaut write me:

quote:

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If homosexual marriage is okay, relatively speaking, then so is marriage between a man and a child or a woman and a dog.

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No it is not, because there is no valid comparison between them. There is only a thinly veiled insult, and I don't for one second believe it wasn't intended.

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W.W.E.D.?

My statement, that you quoted above, is not a moral statement. Whether or not there are absolute epistemic standards is a separate question from whether or not there are absolute moral standards.As to whether there are absolute epistemic standards, I will leave that for another time and place.

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Regime change in Washington - midterm elections, Nov 7

If you are right, then you are righteous because of your good deeds. Jesus preached against this concept with such specificity, that He was crucified. His words are offensive to the self-righteous heart!Mathew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give (do) a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain (do) out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean (do) the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.He clearly said, what righteousness would mean in the following also:

quote:

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Mark 10:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone....
(Parenthetically, it is interesting that Jesus said in effect, "Do you know who I really am, or are you patronizing me". Goodness being so far removed from our comprehension and ability to fulfill, is precisely why He came to fulfill the law, so as to save us)
...19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'" 20 "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy." 21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22 At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

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The fact is Ringo, we cannot do, because doing is perfection. It is righteousness and nothing less.But Jesus did do!Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.Jesus is the only Son of God. The only one righteous!John 3:16 [Jesus said,] "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

That in nonsense. There is a difference between an expression of love and commitment between two consenting adults, and marriage between a person and a minor, or an animal. As far as I can see, a minor or an animal can not consent.The way I view it, if you are against same gender marriage, don't marry someone of the same gender.

You're suggesting they are like the alcoholics that need an outside standard to stay dry, or a person on a diet that keeps nibbling unless controlled by an overseer.Although this appears to be a fairly pessimistic view of many people, potentially there is a lot of truth.No moral code or law of others is going to prevent socio-paths from acting on their inability to empathize with others or consider the effects of their behavior or think anything other than their values are valid.Between the absolute socio-path and the most compliant social maven lies a full spectrum of people. What we consistently see is that all people are convinced that their personal world view is correct and that their behavior is based on their {values\views\standards\ethics} not on the codes and laws of others.Thus, at no point will you have people that would abide by an external code or law before they would abide by a personal standard. We see this in the private behavior of Haggard and others no matter what they profess as a public code of ethics morality and behavior.This is where the concept of passing laws to control behavior of others fails.Therefore laws are not the answer.Perhaps the answer lies, if anywhere, in behavioral psychology and the medical treatment of {mental\chemical\hormonal} imbalances ...... in understanding what is not operating properly in some people, and in understanding what "proper operation" IS and basing behavioral moral codes and ethics on realistic social patterns, and suiting reactions (as opposed to punishments) to infractions based on those realities.Enjoy.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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Nonsense. I quoted Jesus' own words about what righteousness is and who inherits the kingdom.All He said was to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. He said not one single solitary word about "perfection".Morality consists in doing unto others as we would have them do unto us. We are not perfect when dealing with our own needs, so there is no implication that we need to be perfect in dealing with the needs of others.

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When did I ever say I was a good person?

... refuted by the evidence. Haggard was no more able to behave even with the "christian" moral code than without it. There are still as many christians in jail as in the general population. There is NO visible benefit in any form to show that christian morality standards are any better at controling the behavior of people. And this is shown to be equally true of christians who supposedly accept the christian doctrines of moral behavior even as defined by extremist churches. Ted Haggard proves this. His initial denial of charges proves this. He's been forced by the evidence and the opinions of others to publically admit behavior. In his mind is another question. This is absolutely false. The only thing that doesn't exist is "absolutist" morality - and it doesn't exist anyway.The golden rule still applies, enlightened self-interest still applies, the universality of equality, justice, liberty and basic human rights still apply.It is still valid that wanton murder and social mayhem is disruptive of society as a whole and thus society as a whole will restrict it as morally and ethically wrong. Actually the fastest growing faith in prison is Islam.BUT: the data involves the faiths the inmates noted when they were first incarcerated, not after any jail-time revelations.There is also VERY high recidivism in the USof(N)A, and of those repeat offenders the proportion that is christian is still basically the same as in the general population (HIGH) if not slightly more than average.I don't think you are dealing with the data fairly - to yourself.Tellingly the ONE thing that has been shown to reduce recidivism is education - the higher education an inmate receives the less likely they are to be repeat offenders.The conclusion from this is that education promotes higher moral behavior much more effectively than christianity.And from this, that rational consideration of moral behavior and ethics is more realistic than an artificial imposition of archaic codes or any laws based on such codes.And from this, that a relativistic moral code is more realistic than any arbitrary absolutist code.This is what the evidence shows, not assertions, not claims of benefits: data.Enjoy.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.