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Author Topic:   Any good books against ID?
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 38 (11739)
06-18-2002 12:55 AM


Most anti-creationist books take on YEC. Anybody know good books against ID? YEC is easy to take out, however, ID is harder. I need suggestions.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by TrueCreation, posted 06-18-2002 3:48 AM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 3 by Quetzal, posted 06-18-2002 3:51 AM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 6 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-18-2002 2:02 PM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 8 by Philip, posted 06-19-2002 1:23 AM Andya Primanda has replied
 Message 9 by Jeff, posted 06-19-2002 3:12 PM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 15 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-26-2002 2:18 AM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 35 by Brad McFall, posted 07-12-2002 1:23 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 38 (11751)
06-18-2002 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
06-18-2002 12:55 AM


"Most anti-creationist books take on YEC. Anybody know good books against ID? YEC is easy to take out, however, ID is harder. I need suggestions.
--You think ID is harder to take out? You must either be implying that taking out young earth creationism is tinker-toys or something, becuase simply put, ID is subjective, nothing more needed accept sit back and wait for them to bring it to you. At least this is my observation on the case for ID.
--As for the Anti-ID book, I don't think I know of any. I don't know of any off the top of my head that are pro-ID either though..
------------------
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-18-2002]
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-18-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-18-2002 12:55 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Quetzal, posted 06-18-2002 4:03 AM TrueCreation has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 3 of 38 (11752)
06-18-2002 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
06-18-2002 12:55 AM


Andya, I don't know of any books that have been written against ID per se, although I've seen a lot of articles. Here's a rare find: an article written for publication in a peer-reviewed science journal shredding Dembski's explanatory filter: The advantages of theft over toil: the design inference and arguing from ignorance by Wilkins and Elsberry. I don't know how long the link will be up - as soon as Bio Phil publishes it, the link will come down for copyright reasons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-18-2002 12:55 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Quetzal, posted 06-18-2002 1:41 PM Quetzal has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 4 of 38 (11753)
06-18-2002 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by TrueCreation
06-18-2002 3:48 AM


Take it easy, TC. Read Andya's OP again. He merely pointed out that most of the popular press anti-creationist books published so far are aimed at the YECs. My guess is that the reason is the YECs have been at it longer than the IDists. He made no value judgements concerning "ease of refutation" or whatever you were getting upset about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by TrueCreation, posted 06-18-2002 3:48 AM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by TrueCreation, posted 06-18-2002 10:08 PM Quetzal has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 5 of 38 (11761)
06-18-2002 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Quetzal
06-18-2002 3:51 AM


I just remembered that Pennock wrote a book called "Tower of Babel" that was directed against ID. There are probably others out there, now that I think about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Quetzal, posted 06-18-2002 3:51 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 6 of 38 (11762)
06-18-2002 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
06-18-2002 12:55 AM


Andya, you've indicated that you've read Miller's Finding Darwin's God. In it, he discusses the failings of a couple of varieties of ID. I, personally, don't see why any more need be said.
As a side note:
It seems that Behe's perspective of ID is very, very close to being a variety of theistic evolution. As I see it, Behe is all but a mainstream evolutionist.
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-18-2002 12:55 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 38 (11775)
06-18-2002 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Quetzal
06-18-2002 4:03 AM


"Take it easy, TC. Read Andya's OP again. He merely pointed out that most of the popular press anti-creationist books published so far are aimed at the YECs. My guess is that the reason is the YECs have been at it longer than the IDists. He made no value judgements concerning "ease of refutation" or whatever you were getting upset about."
--Well I wasn't upset in the least, just a bit surprized. Even then I see that I misinterpreted his post. Sorry there
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Quetzal, posted 06-18-2002 4:03 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 8 of 38 (11797)
06-19-2002 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
06-18-2002 12:55 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
I need suggestions.
Andya Primanda, ‘want to see innumerable ID proofs that blows away the Mega-ToE?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-18-2002 12:55 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-20-2002 12:37 AM Philip has replied

  
Jeff
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 38 (11831)
06-19-2002 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
06-18-2002 12:55 AM


Andya,
Have a look at the thread below...you may well write your own book exposing the insufficient logic behind ID. Heck, the IDists can't even define their assumptions, let alone substantiate them !
[b] [QUOTE] Andya Primanda, ‘want to see innumerable ID Questions that ID CANNOT answer? [/b][/QUOTE]
regards,
jeff
------------------
"Freedom of Religion" equates to Freedom -FROM- those religions we find unbelievable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-18-2002 12:55 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 38 (11845)
06-20-2002 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Philip
06-19-2002 1:23 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Philip:
Andya Primanda, ‘want to see innumerable ID proofs that blows away the Mega-ToE?[/B][/QUOTE]
Good idea, Jeff! Now I can start refuting his 'proofs'.
btw, Philip, nice try. However appealing to Christianity would not work for me. I am not one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Philip, posted 06-19-2002 1:23 AM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Philip, posted 06-20-2002 12:57 AM Andya Primanda has replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 11 of 38 (11846)
06-20-2002 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Andya Primanda
06-20-2002 12:37 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
btw, Philip, nice try. However appealing to Christianity would not work for me. I am not one.
Not a Christian you tell the world? What are you, respectfully(besides evolved slime)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-20-2002 12:37 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Jeff, posted 06-20-2002 5:51 PM Philip has not replied
 Message 13 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-21-2002 2:41 AM Philip has replied

  
Jeff
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 38 (11895)
06-20-2002 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Philip
06-20-2002 12:57 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
btw, Philip, nice try. However appealing to Christianity would not work for me. I am not one.
[b] Originally posted by Philip:
Not a Christian you tell the world? What are you, respectfully(besides evolved slime)? [/QUOTE]
[/b]
Is there a pressing need to be more than evolved slime ?
Is claiming to be human somehow ‘better than’ being slime ?
After all, slime never:
-committed mass murder,
-lied on its tax form
-stole food from the poor,
-polluted the ground water so babies were born without heads,
-hunted Bison to near extinction
-killed other slime for self interest
You’re ignoring any good qualities that slime may possess because you have
some deeply rooted slime-o-phobia.
What sort of descriptor were you seeking ?
regards,
jeff
------------------
"Freedom of Religion" equates to Freedom -FROM- those religions we find unbelievable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Philip, posted 06-20-2002 12:57 AM Philip has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 38 (11916)
06-21-2002 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Philip
06-20-2002 12:57 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Philip:
Not a Christian you tell the world? What are you, respectfully(besides evolved slime)?[/B][/QUOTE]
Evolved Muslim slime. Happy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Philip, posted 06-20-2002 12:57 AM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Philip, posted 06-26-2002 1:07 AM Andya Primanda has replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 14 of 38 (12194)
06-26-2002 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Andya Primanda
06-21-2002 2:41 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Evolved Muslim slime. Happy?

--Respectfully, Andya primanda; how can Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindoo, or other apperceptive conscious psyches (A.K.A. spiritual beings) possibly evolve from slime (i.e., naturalistic chemicals and elements)? I’m assuming you concede (at least) that you have an apperceptive conscious psyche.
--If you don't concede that you have a soul, I invite you to critique my meager hypothesis here on the proof of your spiritual existence.
Sincerely,
Philip
[This message has been edited by Philip, 06-26-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-21-2002 2:41 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-27-2002 4:08 AM Philip has replied

  
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 38 (12195)
06-26-2002 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
06-18-2002 12:55 AM


Andya, I'm currently reading Behe and all he talks about is common sense so just look for books that violate common sense and you've found it.
Seriously, I truthfully believe you are on a futile path. The worlds of biochemistry and cell biology cry creation and design so loudly that it is not funny. Apologies in advance for my naivity, sentimentality and lack of sophistication.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-26-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-18-2002 12:55 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Zhimbo, posted 06-26-2002 2:36 AM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 36 by nator, posted 07-15-2002 3:04 PM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
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