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Author Topic:   New Pope Thread
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 16 of 106 (200633)
04-20-2005 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
04-20-2005 12:15 AM


quote:
But that is the apparatchik speaking.
Well he can come out now and say "Hey I never really thought that homosexuality was a mental disorder".
There was a laughable attempt by a catholic priest (on the BBC) this morning to try and smooth all this stuff over. "Well we can take the word "perverted" to mean a number of things...."

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 17 of 106 (200643)
04-20-2005 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Mammuthus
04-20-2005 4:56 AM


why unfair? There were plenty of Germans who at risk to their own lives defied the nazi party when it was in power including leaving the party!
Because the guy was still a child at the time. He was 18 when the war ended (and he deserted). I consider it unreasonable to judge anyone for something they did sixty years ago, especially when they did it when so very young.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 04-20-2005 11:29 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 18 of 106 (200652)
04-20-2005 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr Jack
04-20-2005 5:40 AM


I don't agree with that premise. You are responsible for what you did when you were a teenager as well. Otherwise, you could just murder and rape at will, hide out until you were older and say that you should not be held accountable for your behavior. It might work for Pinochet and other powerful political/religious figures but it does not mean that it should.

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paisano
Member (Idle past 6423 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 19 of 106 (200661)
04-20-2005 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
04-19-2005 10:24 PM


Is it possible we have the first creationist pope?
No. His views on evolution are essentially identical to his predecessors.
This document is the most recent statement of the RCC covering the evolution issue (paragraphs 62-70) and was endorsed and approved by former Cardinal Ratzinger.
Long ass link shortened by AdminJar
I don't know much but I have a feeling that the likelyhood is strong.
A clear indication that it's better to do your homework and learn the facts, rather than making decisions based on feelings.
This message has been edited by paisano, 04-20-2005 08:22 AM
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 04-20-2005 11:22 AM

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 20 of 106 (200684)
04-20-2005 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr Jack
04-20-2005 5:40 AM


I consider it unreasonable to judge anyone for something they did sixty years ago, especially when they did it when so very young.
Yeah, but you might very well also consider it unreasonable to judge anyone for doing things that they were born to like to do, and that hurt nobody when they do them.
It's been said but I think people would be a little more forgiving of his failure of moral fortitude if he wasn't simultaneously lambasting gays and lesbians for their own moral "failures." In other words, the only way you get to ignore the beam in your own eye is if you're not picking on the motes in everybody elses'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Dr Jack, posted 04-20-2005 5:40 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Dr Jack, posted 04-20-2005 11:38 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 21 of 106 (200686)
04-20-2005 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by crashfrog
04-20-2005 11:29 AM


Yeah, but you might very well also consider it unreasonable to judge anyone for doing things that they were born to like to do, and that hurt nobody when they do them.
I don't actually believe that people are born with their sexual orientations anyway. Not that that's really relevant.
It's been said but I think people would be a little more forgiving of his failure of moral fortitude if he wasn't simultaneously lambasting gays and lesbians for their own moral "failures." In other words, the only way you get to ignore the beam in your own eye is if you're not picking on the motes in everybody elses'.
I don't see how that's really relevant. Either you believe it's reasonable to judge someone on something they did sixty years ago, or you don't. Bringing the obnoxious bigotry of that person into it doesn't change matters. Still, given the public perception of it all, I'd have still thought the Catholic Church would want a whiter-than-white candidate - especially given their already rather tarnished image.

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 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 04-20-2005 11:29 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 04-20-2005 3:24 PM Dr Jack has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 106 (200689)
04-20-2005 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dr Jack
04-20-2005 11:38 AM


It's also irrelevant, because the accusation is that the new Pope used to be a Nazi. So far, the evidence submitted to support that is that he was obligated to join an organization whose purpose was to promote Nazism.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 106 (200691)
04-20-2005 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Mammuthus
04-20-2005 7:23 AM


quote:
You are responsible for what you did when you were a teenager as well.
This is false. It is an important part of Western jurisprudence that minors have not yet the experience or education to fully distinguish right from wrong, or to fully realize the consequences of their actions and decisions. That is why:
minors cannot vote
minors cannot buy alcoholic beverages
minors cannot be legally obligated for the contracts that they sign
young minors cannot operate a motor vehicle, and older minors must have their parents' permission
minors are under the control of adult guardians
most countries and many US states distinguish between the crimes committed by an adult and those committed by a minor, mandating leniency in the punishment, and, in many cases, sealing the records when the minor reaches majority.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Mammuthus, posted 04-20-2005 7:23 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 106 (200706)
04-20-2005 1:38 PM


I think a major goal of the College
was that whoever was elected would die soon. They simply did not want another quarter century Pope.
The RC knows that it MUST change but like any monolithic organization, change will be slow and painful.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 25 of 106 (200713)
04-20-2005 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dr Jack
04-20-2005 11:38 AM


I don't actually believe that people are born with their sexual orientations anyway.
Do you believe that people are responsible for their own sexual orientations?
I don't see how that's really relevant.
"Judge not lest ye be judged." The Bible stipulates that one is judged by the measure he judges others.
Either you believe it's reasonable to judge someone on something they did sixty years ago, or you don't.
No, either you believe its reasonable to judge someone for something they had no control over, or you don't. He does, so its not unreasonable - in fact it's perfectly Biblical - to judge him by the same standard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Dr Jack, posted 04-20-2005 11:38 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Chiroptera, posted 04-20-2005 3:57 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 31 by Dr Jack, posted 04-21-2005 4:27 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 106 (200717)
04-20-2005 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
04-20-2005 3:24 PM


quote:
I don't actually believe that people are born with their sexual orientations anyway.
Do you believe that people are responsible for their own sexual orientations?
These two choices do not exhaust all possibilities. Not every behavior pattern fits into either genetic determination or self-conscious choice. I never chose to be an atheist, for example; I resisted accepting atheism kicking and screaming. Yet, I do not believe that I was "born" an atheist. Unless one includes, perhaps, that I was born into a social and educational environment that impressed certain beliefs and ways of thinking into me.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 106 (200719)
04-20-2005 4:10 PM


This is not going to turn into yet another homosexualitry thread
One more post on whether Homosexuality is normal or not, whether it is genetic or not, whether it is right or wrong and I will close the thread.
Enough!

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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 28 of 106 (200734)
04-20-2005 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Chiroptera
04-20-2005 3:57 PM


These two choices do not exhaust all possibilities.
It wasn't my intent to give a choice between genetics and self-determinism. Are gay people responsible for their orientation, or are they not? That's the only question, and those are all the possibilites.
Not every behavior pattern fits into either genetic determination or self-conscious choice.
Well, I never said they did, and I certainly didn't say that homosexuality did.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 29 of 106 (200735)
04-20-2005 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by AdminJar
04-20-2005 4:10 PM


Re: This is not going to turn into yet another homosexualitry thread
One more post on whether Homosexuality is normal or not, whether it is genetic or not, whether it is right or wrong and I will close the thread.
Jesus, fucking relax. We're just clearing up a misunderstanding. The Pope's views on homosexuality are quite relevant to the topic, as is the legitimacy of judging him for those views.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by AdminJar, posted 04-20-2005 4:10 PM AdminJar has replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 106 (200738)
04-20-2005 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by crashfrog
04-20-2005 5:39 PM


Re: This is not going to turn into yet another homosexualitry thread
Then stick to debating the Pope's views, should you know them. This WILL NOT become another thread debating the issue of Homosexuality.

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
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This message is a reply to:
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