Pit bulls suck� Is it in their genes?

In another thread I had mentioned (sorta in passing) that our Brittany had been mauled by a Pit bull. I stated that I felt that pit bulls were useless animals (I seem to recall that I actually said something like they were utterly fucking useless) and should be banned. Nonetheless, Shcraf simply replied that she did not agree, and that I could start a new thread to discuss the value of pit bulls. Well here ya go.Why? Why have one? Honestly, I see no point. These dogs were originally bred to bait bulls and more recently were/are bred for dog fighting. Are they still commonly bred for these characteristicsprobably not? Are these characteristics still part of the genetics? I dont know, Im not a geneticist, but my limited knowledge of evolution would lead me to believe that this is indeed the case. A web site I visited admitted that even without specific training, the potential to fight exists in the breed. To me, that clarifies that: "yes, it's in their genes".So why continue to allow the breed to exist? Dogs are, after all, a result of mans selective breeding for desired traits and I personally see no value in the traits they possess. I say lets remove them from the dog gene pool.I should have started this post by saying that prior to our dog being attacked I was more or less neutral about the breed. I had friends of friends that had pit bulls and I had heard nothing but praise for their animals. And I know that most pit bulls probably die of old age without ever having bitten a person, let alone kill one. Now, having said that, I also think in many cases it was simply a matter of the correct circumstances not arising. That is to say, no one was seriously mauled or killed only because, for reasons that we will never know (and I knowingly cannot provide evidence for), the opportunity never presented itself. Sure, you can look at the American Temperament Test Society and see that our dog (the Brittany) scored 90 while the bit bull scored 83 (not a big difference), but what the test ignores is the possible damage that can be inflicted. And there-in lays the problem. Seriously, read the stats and tell me how many fatal dog attacks were committed by a Brittany last year. Just so you know, pit bulls DO lead the list, with 21% of fatal attacks being committed by pit bulls and pit bull type dogs (Brittanys didnt even make the list).And I know all about people saying that its the owners fault. Bull shit, the owners didnt try to kill our dog, their pit bull did. Trust me on this onethey too claimed that their dog was well trained, loving, friendly and would never hurt a flea, but once it attacked, forget it. Nothing (short of two people beating the holy crap out of it while I pried open his mouth) could get this dog to stop the attack. Our dog survived out of dumb luck (his shock collar got in the way of the pit bull being able to get a good grip around his neck).Anyway, I guess thats enough. Pit bulls suck, and even a pro-pit bull group admits that they ALL have the potential to attack bred into them. I fail to see how anyone can defend these dogs as a breed, but what the hellgo for it.Later,FliesOnlyAdministrator: I'm not sure how to start a new topic. Is this correct? If so, I think "Coffee House" is the most logical place for this one.Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Touch up topic title formating.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

This is a rather difficult issue and as a dog lover, I admit to being somewhat conflicted about it. I have known many very good pit bulls that were very well behaved and playful and loving animals. But they had good, responsible owners who were not only well-meaning, but experienced and knowledgable about how to train a dog. It is difficult to blame the genetics of the breed for the disposition of all of them. That is kind of like saying one race of humans is more violent than another. I also don't think pit bulls have been intentionally bred for violence for a very long time. I also think, in terms of overall statistics, that German sheppards are responsible for the most bites on people.That said, they are not a breed for novice owners, anymore than the breed I own. A German short-hair is far too athletic, active and demanding for any inexperienced owner to manage. I think a lot of the trouble with pit bulls IS the owners, owners who don't have a clue how to effectively train the dog, read the dog, and avert the development of problem behaviors. Other owners I have known have intentionally encouraged the aggressive bahvior. They are intrinsically more dangerous than other breeds, but that doesn't mean they should all be exterminated. Just as we would argue for humans, I think every dog has to judged on an individual basis, not the breed. Unfortunately, it is a breed that also appeals to agressive owners that sometimes encourage agression inthe dog.Now the conflicted part. I once owned a Rottweiler - sheppard cross that was one of the most beautiful and faithful dogs I ever owned. But she was intrinisically aggressive - not to me, her trainer, but to other dogs, and later to other people. I recognized this and worked hard to break her of all aggressive tendencies. It seemed to work, but she was really intelligent and began to try and assert herself more and more whenever I was not present (I was the only one she really respected and feared). She finally tried to kill my hound dog while I was away on a trip and I was going to have her put down, but a member of my wife's family wanted to take her. The dog eventually ended up attacking a paper boy and was put down. So I am now convinced that even the best intentions of an experienced trainer are not going to really eliminate aggression in a dog that has that tendency. But the owner has a huge responsibility for the dog's demeanor and disposition - if they can't control it when they are WITH the animal, they shouldn't own it.This message has been edited by EZscience, 06-27-2005 06:23 PM

I agree, these dogs are not for the average novice dog owner. They take a lot of responsibility as well as knowledge.I have a pit bull and she is the sweetest dog I've ever known. However, I've also treated her well and did a lot of research on pit bulls when she was given to me.I keep her away from other dogs (she's a through and through scrapper), I don't walk her in the neighborhood, I have a high fence that is kept up, and I make sure everyone that comes into my house knows what kind of dog she is, and I tend to keep her away from guests. I keep her away mostly for my guests' sakes since many people are intimidated and afraid of pits.Additionally, I've had her 11 years now with absolutely no problems, but, as I said, I don't allow any of my guests alone with her unless she knows them well, and neither do I allow other people's children to be near her or play with her. I allow my son to play with her, but only when I'm nearby. I watch her and him closely.I fully understand the nature of pit bulls and while I don't believe she would ever hurt anyone, I also try to make sure she is not given a chance. When it comes to other dogs, she loves to fight, but she has never started a fight nor has she ever hurt a dog smaller than herself.That's not to say she would never attack another dog. I believe she would. She does love to fight and would definitely harm another large dog if not kill it. I won't deny that aspect of her breed. That is precisely why I keep her away from other dogs.Having done my research on pit bulls, I know that the old pit breeders (the ones that bred dogs for fighting) always put down any dog that showed the least bit aggressiveness towards people. No pit bull breeder who fought dogs wanted a dog that would bite. Handlers are right there in the pits alongside their dogs and to have a people aggressive dog was risking life and limb. Therefore, those dogs were put down immediately.Additionally, pit breeders only wanted a dog who would go after another dog of the same aggressiveness and size. Any dog who attacked puppies or small dogs was also put down. To pit breeders, that trait is a serious cowardly flaw and not desired.I am strongly in favor of those practices.And of course that's the main problem with pit bulls these days. Today you have any Joe Blow breeding pits without any knowledge whatsoever of what makes a good pit. People started breeding pits for people aggression instead of putting those to sleep. And to make such a strong and fearless dog aggressive toward people was/is a huge, huge mistake. It's the reason why we're in the position we are in today.These dogs require very specific breeding and training requirements as well as knowledgeable breeders and owners. Breeding and raising pits is serious business. As it stands, I'm not sure I'm against local bans on pit bulls. I at least believe, every pit should be fixed immediately unless you have a license to breed pits or it's a show dog.This message has been edited by roxrkool, 06-27-2005 09:20 PM

The point about aggression toward other dogs versus people is a very good one. Two entirely different things for a dog. Most pits seem naturally aggressive toward other dogs, but not necessarily people. It's something novice owners may have no real appreciation for until their dog jumps on another dog. All owners should be aware of this. I read FliesOnly's original story when it happened and the scenario was all too familiar. However, that said, individual dogs of many other breeds may express the same tendency. Owner, know thy dog.

Your post is pretty much what I think about pit bulls.Another thing I would like to mention is that it's almost always very bad for a breed when a particular kind of dog becomes popular. Then everybody wants one but they don't want to do the research on the breed, wait maybe a year or more for a puppy, invest lots of time and education to learn how to choose, train and handle it, and pay a lot of money for a really great quality animal from a expert breeder who really cares about the breed and great temperament.No, they see a movie or see some movie star or other celebrity with a particular breed and they want one NOW.This happened with dalmatians when the Disney movie came out a while ago. The only dog that has ever been agressive to me and actually bit me was a dalmatian that was cooped up in a house all day.When I was growing up, the number one purebred dog for dogbites were toy poodles, I think followed by cocker spaniels and doberman pinschers.So, I do think that breeding is a problem, but so is the impulse purchase of pets for the reasons of trend or style. It's also the poor breeding practices of amateur breeders who are simply taking advantage of a money-making opportunity and have no clue what they are doing.

In the UK we have any number of moral panics - a few years ago it was Rottweilers and similar breeds of dogs, the result of which was some fairly harsh laws limiting their breeding or ownership (at least that's how I remember it).On the other hand, a friend and I were attacked by this type of dog while in South America - I dread to think what would have happened if I did not already know how to disable a dog.

Hello EZscience: I disagree, it is not a difficult issue at all, and I too am an avid dog lover (as is my wife). Pit bulls can be extremely vicious, so why take the chance? Read roxrkool’s response and see that even she, a pit bull owner, has concerns and takes extreme caution with her dog. Why not make a better (safer, less nerve-racking) choice? During the 20 years between 1979 and 1998, one third of all fatal dog attacks were committed by pit bulls. Most attacks (fatal and nonfatal) were by the family pet, and most were on children under the age of fourteen. So again I askwhy own one? While it may be true the German Shepherds are involved in most dog bites (I’m don’t really know), I’m talking about fatal attacks on humans, and when we look at that statistic, it’s pit bulls first (21%), followed by mixed breeds (16%), Rottweilers (13%), and then German Shepherds at only nine percent. But there’s a big difference herea German short-hair (a beautiful dog, by the wayduring Grad school, a friend was a German short-hair breeder and she would occasionally bring puppies into Brook Hallsit was very cool) is not the type of dog that will attack and kill someone when he or she misbehaves. This only helps to prove my point. Pit bulls are walking time bombs. Sonot to sound like a broken recordwhy own one? No it isn’t. Ok, I know that this is not what you mean, but by reading this one could get the impression that it’s ok if these dogs kill other dogs, just as long as they don’t kill people. As a dog lover, certainly you agree that even if a pit bull only kills another dog...that that is still terrible. Remember, our dog is only alive because of dumb luck. True, but its part of a pit bulls genetics to attack and kill other dogs. Have you ever seen a pit bull in action? Not read about, not heard about it, but watched it unfold in front of your very eyes? It’s not like a regular dog fight where two animals are having a bit of a scuffle. My dog DID NOTHING to provoke the attack and did nothing during the attack. It is not in his breed to fight. The pit bull, on the other hand, was not trying to settle a difference, was not trying to protect his owner, was not defending his territoryhe was trying to do nothing other than kill our dog because that’s what they do.So why have one?

Hi Roxrkool: Look, the decision to have a dog as a companion is a choice. Nobody is forced to have a dog. You choose which type (breed) of dog you want. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone, other than a drug dealer I guess, would consciously make a choice that comes with so many strings attached. Why go through all the troubles that even you admit you have to go through, when you could have simply picked a dog that is actually nice to things, other than just yourself? For example, a month or so ago my wife and are were walking through the woods (we are fortunate in having 800 aces or so of undeveloped woodlands and wetlands around our house) when we spooked a doe. Our dog went to the spot she came from and started sniffing around. To our surprise, a fawn not more than a few hours old stood up on its wobbly legs and looked our dog right in the face. They were touching noses, with the fawn just standing there and Motega (our pooch) wagging his tail a mile a minute. Nothing else happened. No barking, no growling, and certainly not attempts to harm the fawn. By choosing to have a pit bull, you miss out on all of these types of experiences. You have to take so many precautions just to walk your dog, that I fail to see the joy of having one. Which is kind of my pointwhy have one? But do you have any basis of comparison? I know someone that owns an anaconda (again, it's a macho thing) and he says it's the nicest "anaconda" he's ever owned. So what...the fucking thing bites him all the time! Pick up a Northern Ringneck Snake sometime and see if you even get the thing to bite at all.
Would you trust your pit bull to just stand there while your two year old niece pulled on her tongue (the dogs tongue...not the two year olds)? It happened to Motega and I completely trusted him.
And by your own admission you cannot do anything with her that may involve other dogs, nor will you leave her alone with guests that are unfamiliar to her. Seriously, how sweet can she be if you have to worry about her anytime someone else is around, or when you take her for a walk, or if children are near? I just don’t understand this line of reasoning. Again, this supports my point. They are walking time bombsso why have one?Could/Would you not also dearly love another breed of dog, if that’s what you would have chosen? The ole my dog wouldn’t harm a flea is a pile of crap. Is it worth the risk to have a dog that was bred to be aggressive and kill other dogs? That behavior is, after all, in their genes.WARNING: I’m about to make a sweeping generalization based totally on anecdotal evidence:
I believe that most people get a pit bull based solely on the look how cool I am factor. Having one shows people just how tough and cool you are. Look at me; I have a dog that will kill you if I tell it to. What other reason is there for owning a pit bull?
I guess what I’m asking is this; Why, with so many other choices out therechoices that don’t come with the burdens and risks of owning a pit bullwould anyone knowingly choose a pit bull as a pet, when they KNOW its potential to attack and kill other dogs, and maybe even kill another person (usually a helpless child)!?I just don’t get it.

I disagree, it is not a difficult issue at all[/qs] On the surface, no. It would not be my breed of choice either. But given that pit bulls do exist, those exisitng dogs deserve evaluation on their individual merits and should not all be tarred with the same brush. I guess we could outlaw breeding them, but until that happens, I would argue that pit bull puppies deserve a chance at good homes same as any other dog. But how many of these were, directly or indirectly, the fault of owners? It would be difficult to assess, but I tend to hold the owners responsible for their dogs actions more than the dogs themselves. Remember, this is a breed that attracts some very roughneck owners who actually want a vicious dog and make sure it becomes one. True. More likely to try and lick you to death. But my point is you have to research what you want in a dog to have an idea what kind of issues you will be dealing with when you get a particular breed. So the biggest part of the problem in my view are pit bull owners who don't do that before they get one. Some of them definitely are, but many are not. My point was that my dog Kila was a mutt, not a pit bull. Very intelligent, very well behaved, very well-trained from a small puppy. But she had a vicious streak below the surface that no amount of training could eliminate. She was very slick too, because she would never demonstrate it in my presence - only in my absence, which made it dificult for me to assess her true ptoential for aggression. Certain dogs have a vicious streak, and pitbulls are probably more likely than most to have one. There are genetics involved, but it can happen with a lot of different breeds and crosses that otherwise have many redeeming qualities. As Roxrkool said, it is the responsibility of the owner to recognize these traits in their dog at early stages and deal with them appropriately, up to and including having the animal put down.
Why own one? Well I said I was conficted about it, but only because there are some very good pit bull puppies out there that would make good dogs for responsible owners. They don't all deserve to be put down because of some irresponsible owners. That's not what I meant. It is important for an *owner* to recognize the difference between aggression toward other dogs and aggression toward people because the approach to remedial training is different. In one case, it becomes more important to socialize the animal with a variety of people at an early age. In the other case, the emphasis is more on socializing them with other dogs. Of course, not all dogs will respond to the training and those that do not should probably be put down. But it can happen with many different breeds and it is, once again, the owner's responsibility if it goes uncorrected. Yes, in fact I have helped to separate TWO of them on one occasion. Fortuantely they were more concerned with killing each other than the humans trying to separate them. There is a genetic component to their tendency to attack other dogs. The was bred to fight for many years. If they do not repond well to socialization at an early age, they should ALWAYS be on a choke chain and/or muzzled in public situations where they may come into contact with other dogs.I think your outlook is a bit colored by your understandably traumatic experience, but I would still argue that your beef is with the owner of that dog (rather than the breed, per se) for not (1) knowing the tendencies of his/her own dog and (2) maintaining total control of it in a public situation.

Hello Again: But seeing as how you will never know if "your" dog has it in his genes to attack another dog until the opportunity presents itself and it's too late, is it worth it? Don't you see what I'm trying to get at? You will never know.
Take my example. How were the owners to know that their particular pit bull was an asshole? They trained it well (they claim). It had never attack another dog before. It had never acted aggressive. So how were they to knowuntil it finally did snap and try to kill our dog.
That’s what I’m trying to get at here. The breed existed to first go after bulls, and then later for use in dog fights. It’s in their genes. If we were discussing owning lions or tigers, or alligators, would you still have the same opinion? I readily admit that my opinion has been colored by the experience and trust me when I tell you that I am furious with the owners. Having said that, I still don’t think you completely understand why point. Even you admit that these dogs have a genetic predisposition to attack and kill other dogs. My question is this: What’s the purpose of owning one? If you could choose from literally hundreds of dog breeds, why in the name of fuck would you choose a pit bull? (Not you personally EZsciencejust in general).I guess I want to hear from people who own them (roxrkool) as to why they made the choice they did.Oh, and I did understand that you were not trying to imply that it was ok to kill other dogsjust not humans.

1. Low coat maintenance. They have very short sleek coats. Shedding is minimal. They don't need brushing, unless you've been in tick country, and you can bathe them yourself; NO PROFESSIONAL GROOMING BILLS.2. Loyal. Extremely loyal dogs: aside from the emotional satisfaction this gives the owner, Pits have less of a tendency to wander or run away.3. Affectionate. They want to cuddle all the time. They want to sleep right next to you in bed. [CAUTION: one thing that can turn a Pit squirrilly is keeping it in the yard and giving it only minimal human contact. Some breeds do fine like this, but Pits react like emotionally abused children, and become anti-social and unpredictable.]4. Stamina. These dogs can go on ten mile hikes, camp out, and hike back the next day. They can run with you when you're on a bicycle. It's really hard to tire a Pit out, so if you want a dog for a companion on outdoor activities, even mountain biking, this is a good breed to consider.5. All Weather Dogs. Pits don't tend to overheat or catch chills like dogs bred for a certain climate.6. Not Voracious. You can usually free-feed a Pit, and not have a "dinner time," because they won't overeat like some breeds when given unlimited food. They also are easy to train to leave your food alone.7. Trainable. Pits are active puppies, so their training sometimes gets off to a slow start, but by the end of their second year, they are very obedient dogs. When you think about it, a fighting dog that will listen to its owner, and stop fighting when told to, even in the high heat of battle, is a very obedient dog.8. Good Average Size. You can expect a female pit to be 40-60 lbs, and a male to be 50-70. This is a good solid "big" dog, not a little yappy dog, without being enormous.9. Not Barkers. Although your Pit will defend you if you are attacked, and will defend your home, they don't bark at every car that goes by, or every set of footsteps in the hallway. They are one of few large breeds that make good apartment dogs.....Note: I stole this from some other forum

Not true. You work with your dog and socialize it with other dogs from an early age. These tendencies are quite observable from my experience. You watch for them, correct them, and take precautions if you are not confident in your dog's reactions to other dogs. Any pit bull or Rottweiler should always be chained on a public run if it has ever shown aggression toward other dogs. It is their responsibility to know. You appear to be granting these owners far too much latitude. They did not 'know' there dog as they should have. And how can you be sure they are telling the truth anyway? Not a fair comparison. I don't agree with anyone keeping wild animals in captivity except professional zoos. You are correct that actual owners should step up to the plate here and defend their positions. I have never owned one, but I have had several friends that did and I often had good fun with their dogs. Hence my somewhat defensive position. I liked those particular dogs and had a lot of fun playing with them.I suspect various people have a range of motives, and not all are good motives either, as I have intimated. Some people just want an intimidating animal, others a potential weapon. At the other end of the spectrum are people who may simply save a young pit from being put down because they feel sorry for it. Unfortunately, dog ownership is sometimes a question of chance opportunity. It's not always a premeditated choice. Hopefully Rox will come back and give us some more insights.This message has been edited by EZscience, 06-28-2005 02:35 PM

Nice list...you forgot one though.10. May snap at any moment without warning and kill your child.Ok, that's a bit harsh perhaps, I admit it. I know that most pit bulls won't do this...but the point is you can never be sure. I know, I know, you can say that about any dog. Well, bull shit. Look, if I screw up the training of my Brittany, he simply won't hunt as well as I would like (actually, he’s primarily a companion dog anyway...hunting him is a secondary thing with us) but he’s not going to instinctively kill another dog or attack a human. Get it? In order to make a pit bull a social animal that can safely be around other dogs you have to first put in a butt-load of training. Yes, it is up to the owners, but by the same token, any half wit asshole with the money can buy a pit bull. It is the dogs, not the owners, that are the root problem.Look, you can blow sunshine up my ass all you want about how wonderful these dogs are and what great pets they make. You can go on and on about how easy they are to train and how loving they are to children. But the fact is that almost of ALL fatal attacks on humans are committed by pit bulls. And most of those attacks are on children and most of those children were killed by their on fucking pets! The fact is, is that they are naturally aggressive and it takes a lot of work to reverse that. Do we accept this sort of thing in any other animal? I don't know, I'm asking. Is there another animal out there that we (humans) accept as a companion animal that is potentially so aggressive if NOT FIRST trained to behave otherwise?Christ almighty, this is a site with plenty of evolutionary biologists on it and yet none of you have mentioned the genetics of these animals. The breed was bred to kill other dogs, why is it so difficult to understand why they continue to behave in such a manner? Sure, we can cross them with other breeds and do other such things and get a new breed that may not be so aggressive, but pit bulls are pit bulls.And as for the list, many other breeds also fit those categories, but have the additional trait of NOT being instinctively aggressive towards other dogs, so what's your point? Is it more important to you that your dog not shed too much than it is that you cannot walk him unmuzzled or unleashed for fear he might kill something?

I don't think that is true. As it has been said, Pitbulls were bread to be NOT aggressive towards humans.

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It is reported on temperament tests conducted by the American Temperament Test Society that Pit Bulls had a passing rate of 82% or better -- compared to only 77% of the general dog population.

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These temperament tests consist of putting a dog through a series of unexpected situations, some involving strangers.

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Any signs of unprovoked aggression or panic in these situations result in failure of the test. The achievement of Pit Bulls in this study disproves that they are inherently aggressive to people.

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Pit Bulls are one of the most stable people-friendly dogs in existence. The National Canine Temperament Testing Association tested 122 breeds, and Pit Bulls placed the 4th highest with a 95% passing rate!

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Pitbulls have a bad reputation but are not bad dogs. Even if I believed that 'fact', I would say that this is because of the types of people who own pitbulls and the way that they use them, not because pitbulls are inherently viscious or are bad dogs.

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"Pit Bulls attack more people than any other breed." Bite statistics actually show otherwise. More popular breeds that are generally considered to be "nice dogs" top the majority of lists. It may seem to the general public who is constantly bombarded with disturbing reports on Pit Bull attacks that this is the only breed that harms humans with any great regularity. However, the fact remains that Pit Bulls are hot news items. Dogs of all breeds and mixes bite and attack people all the time, but it is mainly the Pit Bull bites that get sensationalized. A report about the local Golden Retriever that attacks and maims a child isn't considered newsworthy. No one wants to believe that any dogs--even the fuzzy, cute, popular ones--are capable of biting. It's much easier to blow up and sensationalize a story about a vicious dog when it's a member of a breed who's reputation preceeds it. Pit Bulls are already considered the demons. All the reporters have to do is stand in front of the camera, look horrified, and say, "A Pit Bull did it".

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Petey, the faithful dog on the TV show, The Little Rascals, was a Pit Bull. He spent countless hours with children day after day and never hurt anyone. He was one of the most intelligent Hollywood dogs of all time.

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You're mad because a pitbull attacked your dog. If it was a different breed, would you advocate wiping out that breed? Probably not, because of the way pitbulls are portrayed and the 'facts' that you have. Pitbulls aren't bad, they've gotten a bad rap.