Sex Education

and yet... I assume you know what inhibition is.How does a person who dislikes X and feels they cannot be a party to X, not have a "psychological or emotional difficulty" toward the act of X? This is of course what we would call being "inhibited". I have a hangup about scatological sex acts, and fart jokes (among other things). You think I'm being condescending to myself, or just realizing I have my own limits?It sounds to me that you don't like admitting that you have limits (which means by definition you are inhibited about something) view limits as something negative rather than as character traits.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

No, you are wrong. Look again. Did I say that? Or did you just think I said that? What I did was give an example of what might seem silly to others, and said that that is analogous to how I view cultures with limits that I do not have.Yes that means that they look silly to me, but that is not to deride them as objectively silly. It was to create an awareness of how anytime anyone (or culture) has limits that one does not share, they look silly. Yet when one has a limitation that others break, they seem offensive and backward. In reality they are just different limits with no objective difference between them.I have gone on to say that I have my own hangups, just not any of the ones I happen to be dealing with in conversation at the moment.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

What is wrong with you? Meeeeeeeeyow! Really, which ones? But more important, give me percentages. Because most guys don't like women that look unhappy and unhealthy. Some might, but most don't. Wtf do you know about what is or is not popular in the sex business? That street prostitutes exist, does not mean they are popular, nor that their "look" is popular.Scummy street prostitutes exist because of poverty and the illegality of prostitution (and to some extent drugs). You let me know when you can magically see how many people are using escorts and brothels because they cannot stand what you are talking about.Oh yeah, and if guys liked nasty-looking street hookers, that's what girls and the fashion industry would be shooting for. Last I checked "street hookers" is a minimal niche market.Time to pull back the claws schraf.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I think there was a miscommunication. I was not referring to Amsterdam in specific. My guess is though that if I discussed them in a negative way, including ascription of characteristics that were not true, you'd call that ignorance... correct?You would state that I should get to know them better before making such comments... correct?You made comments about strip clubs and prostitution, and that is what I was discussing as a dividing line between provincialism and ignorance. To say you don't like them and that they seem seedy to you is provincial. To discuss their qualities and effects on others (including society) with little to no experience is ignorance.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Look, I just think that using the word "hangup" carries a critical, condescending tone, and using the phrase "personal limits" or similar does not sound like a value judgement, nor critical.

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Really, which ones?

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Some of the ones in rural or poor inner city areas, for example.I've heard some nasty stories from several male friends and aquaintences.

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But more important, give me percentages.

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Why?

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Because most guys don't like women that look unhappy and unhealthy.

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LOL!Then why do they like runway models? Or the Olsen Twins?

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Some might, but most don't.

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Your opinion.

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Wtf do you know about what is or is not popular in the sex business?

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If they couldn't get money, then they wouldn't be there, would they?I can drive to downtown Detroit and see these women every night of the week, so obviously they are getting plenty of business.

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That street prostitutes exist, does not mean they are popular, nor that their "look" is popular.

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They seem to be popular enough with the people in and around Detroit, otherwise they wouldn't be out there every night.

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Oh yeah, and if guys liked nasty-looking street hookers, that's what girls and the fashion industry would be shooting for.

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Uh, a lot of high fashion models DO look like strung out heroin addicts.I would be willing to bet that a larger percentage of fashion models ARE drug addicts when compared to the general population.

Can I ask what doesn't look like a sweat shop within rural or poor inner city areas? As far as anecdotes go... well you know about anecdotes, as you deride them enough. Hearsay is even worse. Why would I ask for perentages when I was dealing with an argument suggesting strip clubs were like sweat shops? If I said bakeries and delis were like sweat shops, wouldn't you be interested in what statistical evidence I had to make such a statement? Who looks like runway models or the Olsen twins? Street prostitutes? Get me some pix of the prostitutes around where you live. In Chicago they sure didn't look like that.And are you suggesting the runway models and Olsen Twins look unhappy and unhealthy? Maybe underweight, but not like a junkie in misery. That's right. My opinion counts less than yours in this right? Because why exactly? Shame shame shame. This is getting pathetic. That they get money is no sign that they are popular. It is a sign that enough people are desperate enough to hire them that they can make what they need. If they were really popular then they wouldn't have to hang out on the street hoping anyone passing by might pick them up. Wow what great skills. Guess who else I see every day looking for money on the street? Xian fundies, hari krishnas, and bums, lots and lots of squalid bums.In fact the bums outnumber the street prostitutes. Does this Detroit place have bums?By your logic these bums must be real popular otherwise they wouldn't be out there every day. That's not to mention the other groups, like the Krishnas. What a very small mind you have. To begin to compare addicted street prostitutes to high fashion models (who may have addictions) just shows the depths to which you are willing to sink in this argument.You want to show me the layouts of models looking like addicts, and I don't just mean heroin chic thin, you present them. Frankly I think its a disgrace and a slap in the face of people that have real problems.And I really couldn't care what you think of whether models have a higher drug addiction rate than the general population. My guess is high paid actors have the same thing, and so do people working in low class jobs (heavy industry especially). What does that have to do with the popularity of their look?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Well, I disagree. There will always be some jobs that nobody loves to do, yet need to be done. (Call them "dirty jobs" if you will.) I don't think it's exploitation when a person says "my desire or need for money outweighs my distaste for this job"; that's a choice that they made freely, as far as I can tell. And I certainly don't think that preventing them from taking that job, from making that choice, somehow preserves their freedom.I mean, I'm certainly offended by the idea of a man offering the homeless a pittance for them to debase and injure themselves - and at some websites I heard about, the "compensation" was sexual - twice the exploitation for your money. But it's difficult for me to determine a really reasonable basis for my offense. So too with the sex industry. I guess the only thing I find truly exploititive is the traditional strip club business model - charge the patrons for entry and the dancers for dancing, and the dancers hope they make enough from tips to get by. You shouldn't have to pay to work, no matter what.

What I said was that I find strip clubs and houses of prostitution repugnant.Obviously I am speaking of those I know about, which are a few in the States and one in the Phillipines. I think they are debasing to the strippers and the prostitutes, and that these employees mostly are sensitive to this. I also think that the "exploitation" often goes beyond just needing money. I think it is sometimes--perhaps frequently-vicious in nature.Amsterdam might be quite different.

Holmes, I just want to say that your whole response seems like you are getting incredibly bent out of shape because I dared to say that some strip joints are not, in reality, happy-shiny wonderful temples devoted to the celebration of hedonism.They just aren't all like that.

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Can I ask what doesn't look like a sweat shop within rural or poor inner city areas?

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How is that relevant?You asked which strip clubs looked like sweatshops, and I told you which ones.

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As far as anecdotes go... well you know about anecdotes, as you deride them enough. Hearsay is even worse.

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So, are you telling me that the run down, seedy, nasty looking strip joints in inner city Detroit are really lovely palaces that are devoted to the reverence of the female form on the inside, drug, violence and coersion free?I have no reason to doubt my brother and a close friend among others when they tell me that they were in nasty strip joints.You are the one claiming what strip clubs are like, I'm just pointing out that there are nasty, sweatshop-like exceptions to your happy-shiny mental image of nice, clean, happy titty bars.

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Why would I ask for perentages when I was dealing with an argument suggesting strip clubs were like sweat shops? If I said bakeries and delis were like sweat shops, wouldn't you be interested in what statistical evidence I had to make such a statement?

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Not unless I made a claim that a certain number or percentage of bakeries or delis were like sweat shops, which I didn't.I claimed that some were. I really don't understand why you are arguing with me about this. Clearly, there ARE some nasty strip clubs that are like sweat shops. Are you seriously claiming that there is no such thing as a sweatshop-like strip club anywhere in the world? That they don't exist?In fact, YOU were the one making a claim about what most strip clubs are like, based upon your personal opinion of what most men wanted to look at, so why don't YOU provide some stats to support YOUR claim?

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Who looks like runway models or the Olsen twins? Street prostitutes?

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Some of the street prostitutes around here look extremely thin, although not as tall or as well-dressed as runway models.They also smoke just as much.

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Get me some pix of the prostitutes around where you live. In Chicago they sure didn't look like that.

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There were no super skinny prostitutes around there? I find that hard to believe.

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And are you suggesting the runway models and Olsen Twins look unhappy and unhealthy? Maybe underweight, but not like a junkie in misery.

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Hold it. Don't change what you are talking about in mid thought. We were not talking about looking misterable. We were talking about looking unhappy.Runway models look unhappy as a rule. Well, they mostly look detached and blank, but they also look angry or unhappy. Every once in a while, for some designers, they are instructed to smile, but mostly not.This is a typical runway model, isn't it? Bony and unhappy looking.

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That's right. My opinion counts less than yours in this right? Because why exactly?

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Well, you are telling me that most men don't like unhealthy and unhappy looking women, yet grumpy-looking models and underweight women are certainly quite popular with many men in my culture.

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Shame shame shame. This is getting pathetic.

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Yawn, yawn, yawn. Another condescending lecture from holmes.

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That they get money is no sign that they are popular. It is a sign that enough people are desperate enough to hire them that they can make what they need. If they were really popular then they wouldn't have to hang out on the street hoping anyone passing by might pick them up.

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Um, what?

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Wow what great skills. Guess who else I see every day looking for money on the street? Xian fundies, hari krishnas, and bums, lots and lots of squalid bums.

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In fact the bums outnumber the street prostitutes. Does this Detroit place have bums?

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Sure, but many, many more people are going into the city specifically to buy hookers than to see or give money to the religious or destitute beggars. Hookers most likely get more money per hour than either group.

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What a very small mind you have. To begin to compare addicted street prostitutes to high fashion models (who may have addictions) just shows the depths to which you are willing to sink in this argument.

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You want to show me the layouts of models looking like addicts, and I don't just mean heroin chic thin, you present them. Frankly I think its a disgrace and a slap in the face of people that have real problems.

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Whatever. They resemble a sanitized version of skin and bones addicts in more than a few cases. Disneyfied, if you will. Just the fact that all of those "heroin chic" models were not a very dramatic departure (except with the male models) from the body type and size of the typical model before and after that craze in the 90's should tell you something.I know several recovering meth, cocaine, crack, alcohol, and heroin addicts personally, several of them pre-recovery. So, I don't think you need to lecture me about people with "real problems".This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-13-2005 09:00 PM

Exactly. Some are horrible.

It may seem like that, but that is not the case. There are certainly bad strip joints and houses of prostitution, just as there are bad anything anywhere. The question is if it is endemic. To label all because of the few, or because of a condition beyond just their nature, is fallacious.If you simply asked, aren't some strip joints bad, I'd say yeah.Oh but not only did you try to suggest more from the "some", you went on to push some absurd argument about how guys mostly like the look of strung out street hookers... real popular.This is where things got pretty offensive. The ones you've never been to, but heard about, which are stationed in very poor areas and so will likely be very poor. I do. No not that there would be bad strip clubs, not even that there would be bad strip clubs in bad neighborhoods. My thought is this, what guy you are close to, knowing your attitude is, going to tell you anything positive about a strip club, and indeed aren't they likely to embellish how bad a club is?By the way, according to your working theory they should have been discussing how great it was rather than how seedy right? Because guys like that right? Or are you claiming they came to you and said how great these nars were and how hot the girls were because they were so wretched looking?You see, you continue to make contrarian statements. When did I say that? Why is free from drastic exploitation equal to palaces and temples to hedonism? Some are better than others. Some suck. Oh by the way schraf, there are male strip clubs, and dual sex strip clubs. Some of the ones around here have live sex acts. Are the guys at these places exploited. Do they look great, or like bums off the street? Ahhhh yes, the classic turn around. Lets get this straight. A claim was made about strip clubs in general. I rebutted that. The first claimant needs to produce evidence. Then you came in with a statement which appeared to be trying to defend the original claim.Now if you weren't trying to defend RR, and just meant to make the nonpoint that there are some clubs which are bad, then this is a nonissue. It became an issue to me only because I thought you were trying to support RR's position. At that point percentages and evidence need to be forthcoming from you. Is thin the main component you were looking for, or trying to suggest? I didn't get that at all. There are lots of extremely thin looking people, that doesn't suggest the image you were trying to describe. Here is your exact quote... You find me where you were simply talking about thinness. Talk about shifting the goal posts. I simply used misery in place of unhappy. They mean the same thing. It is perhaps a difference in degree, but not necessarily.As far as not changing what you are talking about, return to your statement above, then compare that to the runway model picture you posted. See any similarities? I don't. Oh yeah, thin.By the way, in Chicago, and even here, there are some whopping fat ass street hookers. Some guys really like fat asses and big tits. Some girls have them. What they look like on the runway is not what they look like all the time. It is according to script based on what the show wants for its line of clothes. Most pictorials I have seen of models (meant for male consumption) are not views of someone unhappy.From what I understand the main look they carry on stage is called "aloof". Projection and isolation. So sad. Did Zhimbo choose you because you were unhappy or unhealthy or both? Or is he some sort of exception to the asshole male category? That is partially correct. Now you are getting full condescension. Whereas you were projecting it on me before, here it is in actuality. What was hard to understand? That prostitutes are out every night shows that there are enough people desperate to hire them that they can make a living. That does not suggest anything about their popularity.If a bunch of dehydrated people keep going to a well which pumps up only dirty water, because its the closest well they have access to, and no money to move or fix the well, that does not suggest dirty water is "popular". ???? How many people are commuting just to get to hookers? How many people actually say I'm going to drive into town to get me a really skanky looking street prostitute? You think that's the majority? You think that's what's popular?My guess is many more are coming in and spending money on anything but street hookers. That is what is more popular. Just because hookers might be at the top of the payroll for the lowest caste of urban dwellers, does not elevate them to "popular" status. Sanitized would start making the difference. Well I sure as hell do when I live right next to a recovery and drug distribution center and so see all kinds of these people, have known drug addicts, and you are comparing them to OTHER people that I happen to know as if you know one damn thing about anything, as well as telling me what "my kind" like, when you don't have the first bit of experience with what is in demand sexually.You don't go to strip clubs, you don't watch porn, you don't even seem to like men, yet you sure do like to talk about what men really want all the time. Spare me.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Was I mistaken? Was your only suggestion that some are horrible?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

OK, so NOW you are, yet again, twisting and misrepresenting my arguments into something you would rather rail against.

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It may seem like that, but that is not the case. There are certainly bad strip joints and houses of prostitution, just as there are bad anything anywhere.

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OK, great. You agree with me that there are SOME stip joints that are like sweatshops.

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The question is if it is endemic. To label all because of the few, or because of a condition beyond just their nature, is fallacious.

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Yes, it would be, but can you show me in the following, which is the entirerty of my message, where I "labeled all"?(Bold added by me)

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If strip clubs looked like sweat shops, and the women were as oppressed there as in sweat shops, they would not be as popular as they are.

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If you simply asked, aren't some strip joints bad, I'd say yeah.

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That is, more or less, what I said.

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Oh but not only did you try to suggest more from the "some",

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??"Some", on my planet, means "more than one". Is there more than one nasty strip club? I can attest to that fact, so "some" is a perfectly appropriate word to use.

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you went on to push some absurd argument about how guys mostly like the look of strung out street hookers... real popular.

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No, I never said that.I said that nasty street hookers were plenty popular, NOT that "guys mostly like the look of strung out street hookers".Just because nasty street hookers or nasty strip joints are popular doesn't mean that this is what people ideally want. It means that if this is what they can get, that's what they will consume, thus making them popular.Nowhere did I say that that all strip clubs were like that, or even most. I never even claimed that that nasty strip bars were poplular; I just asked why they wouldn't be.Have you run out of straw yet?

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The ones you've never been to, but heard about, which are stationed in very poor areas and so will likely be very poor.

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Yes, exactly.Didn't you just agree that nasty strip joints actually do exist just a few sentences ago, or are you going to deny their existence now? Because I don't discuss my feeling about things like this with my brother, nor with my friend. At the time I heard the stories, I had never had a discussion about strippers with anyone in my life and hadn't really formed much of an opinion about them.IOW, they couldn't know "my attitude" because I didn't have one yet.Anyway, are you going to now deny that nasty strip joints exist again?

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A claim was made about strip clubs in general.

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Wrong.A claim was made about SOME STRIP CLUBS.SOME! SOME! SOME!

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I rebutted that.

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You rebutted a strawman.

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When did I say that? Why is free from drastic exploitation equal to palaces and temples to hedonism?

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It's called hyperbole, holmes. Exaggeration for effect.

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Some are better than others. Some suck.

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Right.Some suck....which is the point of my post above.

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I simply used misery in place of unhappy. They mean the same thing. It is perhaps a difference in degree, but not necessarily.

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Now you are trying to wiggle away.The words are quite different in degree.I can be unhappy with a haircut but does it make sense to then assume that I am in misery because of a bad haircut?Once again, you show yourself pretty much incapable of refraining from misrepresenting my arguments, especially when it comes to this subject, over which you tend to get overly emotional.

I overstated by saying you labelled all. I should have said "cast a shadow over all". I stated why this was. I was dealing with someone who implicated strip clubs in general. You appeared to be defending that.Some do not effect what you can say about the rest. If you agree that there are some really bad strip clubs, and there are also some really good ones, and most fall somewhere in between, and that the some that are bad do not allow one to make a judgement on srip clubs in general... then we are in agreement. I did not mean more than one strip club. I meant you were trying to make more out of your argument than you had there. I want to preserve that as classic backing away from a position. All I can do now is ask what on earth you mean by popular? That many people use something, that makes it popular?I especially love that line about not claiming that they were popular you just ASKED why they wouldn't be. Can't you admit that's what you were implying with that question? If not, what on earth was the point of saying it? Nice move. Talk about how I invent strawman, while pushing your own. I count two already within this recent post (and that doesn't include the repeat of this gem). Ahem, I didn't say the initial claim was from you. The initial claim cam from RR. It was generalized. hahaha... projection. Schraf I really just used misery in place of unhappy. I was writing quickly and that's the word I chose instead of unhappy so I didn't have it twice in the same paragraph.I completely apologize that it has had an effect on you. If you want me to I will go back and change the word. Then we can deal with the actual meaning, instead of engaging in this sematic argument.Honestly, imagine "unhappy junkie" in place of "junkie in misery". The point I was trying to make remains the same. Look, in this post you weren't even able to get straight who I was talking about, much less what I was saying. I think its pretty clear that from the get go you've been pretty emotional in your responses to me, and its getting worse.Take a break and calm down.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)