Sex Education

Ben deacribed my position perhaps better than I could have. Certainly more concise.Preconceptions and hangups may come from both the culture one lives in as well as one's more immediate experiences (family and friends). They may certainly form your "tastes", but I would make the distinction that there is a technical difference between the two in that preconceptions and hangups are not analyzed and reviewed.I would also perhaps define hangup as being a limitation toward action, while taste may not curtail action at all. Well that's both true and not true. I'm not sure what you are trying to argue for here, as you have consistently ridiculed other cultures that have preconceptions and hangups you do not like, while I have only defended the existence of my own.As Ben very wisely and accurately stated there is a difference between the cultural and the individual level. Experiencing other cultures forces the individual to truly reexamine their own cultural influences.I think this is perhaps why Americans are at a disadvantage compared to most other nations. The US is geographically isolated, relatively cuturally homogenous, and does not invest in sending its citizens out to experience (beyond short holidays) other cultures. That was a major factor in shaping our original gov't, and its a shame we feel it is no longer useful.Most other nations are forced to encounter and actually deal with other cultures, and so they confront cultural bias differently. I have already stated that I do find many of my personal tastes/beliefs superior to others... for me. In any case I did not mean anything as extreme as you seem to be getting at. I actually have some preconceptions and hangups that I obtained from the culture I originated from, and perhaps a few from cultures I have experienced directly. If I have them, and know I have them, I cannot say they are necessarily bad.They are however often inaccurate or unnecessary to have a productive life. It is a shame, and in this I suppose I might come off a bit condescending, that people don't bother finding out where their beliefs come from and examine how they fit into their own and others' lives. I am saddened by the general lack of curiosity or interest in self-reflection I see.People could take what they want as far as how they live, but it'd be nice to have people be able to speak frankly about why they believe what they do. I'm sorry, this means you simply did not read my response to you in that other thread where I openly admitted that as a subjectivist I most certainly do believe many of my tastes and values are superior... for me.Yours can be for you. I truly believe there is no objective standard for moral judgements and tastes. And I have stated (admitted) I do feel mine is superior, as you clearly have expressed you feel yours is superior to others.I am not sure what more you want from me than that.What might be happening is that you are confusing my...1) rejection of factually inaccurate statements regarding where certain preconceptions have emerged in public thought, and
2) factually inaccurate statements regarding other beliefs/cultures which only stem from specific cultural bias, and
3) criticism of what effects such bias can have when merged with gov't policy,with a position on whether a specific belief system or taste can validly be held.What I find interesting is that I believe within this thread I already stated that prudes are not objectively better or worse than hedonists. Thus Robin's personal distaste for sex is just fine... for her. Robin is no better or worse in the scheme of things than I am.I have only challenged factual statements made about hedonist lifestyles, which I believe are inaccurate.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I don't have a "personal distaste for sex." I have a personal distaste for public sex. And I'm a he not a she.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 09-12-2005 12:19 PM

1) You called yourself a prude, which suggests something more than just being against public sex.2) You went off on promiscuity which has nothing to do with public sex,and much to do with sex.Thus, you have issues with sex, not just public sex. I did not mean to imply all sexual activity, though I can see how it might be read that way. I apologize.3) Sorry about calling you a she. I think I did that before as well. I keep confusing you and faith (as far as gender is concerned).

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

"Prude" is a relative term. I am a prude compared to some. I find, for example, such establishments as strip bars and houses of prostitution to be repugnant.

I'm not going to argue with you about this. If you want to say you changed your position, or you weren't quite clear the first time, that's fine. But here is the entire content of your post #43, and from which I derived my comment on your prudery. The above does not suggest a relative state. It suggests an objective state. A prude is one who at the very least can still be shocked, and according to your stated position, shocked about sexual things.Like I said, if you want to say you meant to advocate, or are now advocating a relative position... fine. I would still say that it is a relative issue involving a dislike of sexual actions. Would that not be correct?By the way, don't ever travel to Amsterdam. Or better yet, maybe you should. I live in the heart of the red light district and those things you find repugnant I find beautiful. Maybe you could view them differently by seeing how many countless people visit and enjoy such things all the time.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Thanks for the warning.I'll tell you what's at back of my reaction, Holmes--in regard to strip clubs,etc. A little voice keeps whispering to me, "exploitation" (I'm thinking particularly of women, of course).

You mean you don't think of that in regards to every thing else in the market place? I'd wager that there is more exploitation in the clothing industry than in all strip clubs.If strip clubs looked like sweat shops, and the women were as oppressed there as in sweat shops, they would not be as popular as they are.And the exploitation which does go on in sex industries is actually increased by attempts to outlaw it. If you care about the exploitation of women, make sure sexual work is free.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Quite possibly.You will have to excuse my provinciality, Holmes. Perhaps in Amsterdam it's different.In the States it seems to me like a dirty business--but even here, my experience is limited.

What's exploitative? Is it exploitation any time you hire someone who needs a job? Isn't that just about everybody?It's unquestionably exploitation to (for instance) run a website where I pay bums 20 bucks to fight each other in alleys. (This was actually done, once.) Is it still exploitation to pay a bum 20 bucks to pass out advertising? Or to mow my lawn?It may be exploitation to hire a woman to strip, but is it exploitation to hire a woman to be the nude model for a figure drawing class?I don't think exploitation is the clear line that some people claim it is. There's undeniably exploitation in the sex industry, but can't someone be a sex worker because they enjoy the job and money? Or just the money? (Who hasn't had a job that they hated?)

In the States it is illegal. Once again the point is made. Where sex work is illegal, there will be greater exploitation.Though I will point out that there is one state where prostitution is legal and quite regulated and there appears to be no real exploitation in it at all. It is so under the microscope its hard to see how there could be.There is also the grey area of escorting. There is exploitation by some agencies and no exploitation by others. It would be a bit odd to argue that an agency run by the woman herself would be exploitative, and you might be surprised how many self-employed escorts there are. There is a difference between provinciality and ignorance. If you dislike the practice, that can be called provinciality. To make factually inaccurate statements is ignorance.I will excuse the former, I will not the latter. There is little reason for anyone to be ignorant for long in this day and age.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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(Who hasn't had a job that they hated?)

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Yep. That's pretty much the definition of exploitation. Or at least it should be.

I really don't think that there is a way to spin the use of the word "hangup" in a positive way.a "hangup" is always considered a negative.I mean, here's what Merriam Webster says:hangup1) A psychological or emotional difficulty or inhibition.
2) An obstacle to smooth progress or development.I think that when someone uses that word that it sounds condescending.

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I'm not sure what you are trying to argue for here, as you have consistently ridiculed other cultures that have preconceptions and hangups you do not like, while I have only defended the existence of my own.

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Pot calling the kettel black.You have done plenty more than just defend your own culture.I mean, you just got done calling other cultures which do not share your sexual attitude "silly" and everyone in them as having "hangups".

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If strip clubs looked like sweat shops, and the women were as oppressed there as in sweat shops, they would not be as popular as they are.

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Some of them do look like sweat shops.And why wouldn't they be popular.Strung out, nasty-looking street hookers are popular, and they look like they got fired from a sweat shop.

What an odd comment. Why should I know all about Amsterdam? Because you do?I am sure there are places I know about that you don't, but I don't demand that you know about them just because I do.Of course I know vaguely about Amsterdam's red-light district--it's famous. But not having been there, I don't know in any real sense the atmosphere of the place. That's what I meant by my "provinciality."