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Author Topic:   true religion
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 31 of 84 (39983)
05-13-2003 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dan Carroll
05-13-2003 6:00 PM


'But if you're going to stroll out in public and start telling people that they should also believe in Christianity, they're going to ask you why they should. If your reasons don't meet their standards, they're going to point out why that is'
i never have done this nor have i tryed to do it.if i did i would ask them to read the new testament which personally i did believe! i am not forcing anything on anyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-13-2003 6:00 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-13-2003 9:20 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 84 (40015)
05-13-2003 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by mike the wiz
05-13-2003 6:20 PM


quote:
i never have done this
From post #15:
quote:
this is why i think you should believe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by mike the wiz, posted 05-13-2003 6:20 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 33 of 84 (40137)
05-14-2003 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by mike the wiz
05-12-2003 9:05 PM


mike the wiz writes:
quote:
did iliad or anyone in it die for your sin?
No. The afterlife doesn't work that way. Whether you end up in Tartarus or the Elysian Fields has nothing to do with whether or not anybody else died for you. It has only to do with what you did.
quote:
indeed is the iliad the best selling book in the world , no
What does that have to do with anything?
Do you seriously think that if it weren't for the various religious organizations going out of their way to spread the Bible around, it would survive?
By the way, if you're going to go by numbers, then I suggest you start learning Arabic...it seems that the number of Christians in the world is decreasing while the number of Muslims is increasing.
quote:
the majority of people on earth are you offering them something better?
Incorrect. The majority of people on earth are not Christian. Only about one-third are.
Going by the numbers, most people on this planet think you're god is nothing more than a fantasy you made up.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 05-12-2003 9:05 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by mike the wiz, posted 05-15-2003 8:10 PM Rrhain has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 34 of 84 (40309)
05-15-2003 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Rrhain
05-14-2003 7:13 PM


'Going by the numbers, most people on this planet think you're god is nothing more than a fantasy you made up.'
i did not make the bible up , it says everything in it is true and can you disprove it?
'No. The afterlife doesn't work that way. Whether you end up in Tartarus or the Elysian Fields has nothing to do with whether or not anybody else died for you. It has only to do with what you did'
where as in the bible nothing we do is worthy of heaven.the only way to heaven is Jesus Christ who does not require us to physically fight anyone!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Rrhain, posted 05-14-2003 7:13 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 05-15-2003 8:43 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 37 by NosyNed, posted 05-16-2003 2:14 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 72 by Rrhain, posted 05-22-2003 7:05 AM mike the wiz has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 35 of 84 (40319)
05-15-2003 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by mike the wiz
05-15-2003 8:10 PM


i did not make the bible up , it says everything in it is true and can you disprove it?
That's a great question for Rrhain! Since he's so certain that negatives can be proved, I'd like to see him tackle this one.
Now, me, I'd say that since Mike is making the positive claim ("the bible is true") it's up to him to support it. Otherwise we'd just yell "Prove it is!" "No, you prove it isn't!" back and forth.
Anyway, why would you use evidence from the bible to confirm the bible itself? That's circular reasoning - assuming what you are trying to prove.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by mike the wiz, posted 05-15-2003 8:10 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by John, posted 05-16-2003 12:03 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 71 by Rrhain, posted 05-22-2003 6:33 AM crashfrog has not replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 84 (40345)
05-16-2003 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by crashfrog
05-15-2003 8:43 PM


quote:
That's a great question for Rrhain!
Lol... I was thinking that too.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 05-15-2003 8:43 PM crashfrog has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 37 of 84 (40365)
05-16-2003 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by mike the wiz
05-15-2003 8:10 PM


Let's see Mike, The bible says everything in it is true so since it says so it must be true, right? Hardly a compelling argument is it?
Now you say it can't be disproved?
Well, the problem is what do you think it says?
God exists? Sure if you're careful about how you define that (or don't define it too carefully) then I guess that can't be disproven. So what?
What specific things does it say that have any chance of being disproven? It seems in other discussions here some of the apparent bible statements are being shown to be on shaky ground.
I know the bible doesn't say some things very clearly. Things like the age of the earth for example. If you say it says some specific number then you'd better pick that number very carefully or it will be disproved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by mike the wiz, posted 05-15-2003 8:10 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by mike the wiz, posted 05-16-2003 2:20 PM NosyNed has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 38 of 84 (40433)
05-16-2003 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by NosyNed
05-16-2003 2:14 AM


'Let's see Mike, The bible says everything in it is true so since it says so it must be true, right? Hardly a compelling argument is it?'
i meant only that it can not be completely removed by any suggestion, also he said something silly suggesting i made the bible up, and i disagree it is not only my belief but millions that believe , so stop trying to get me to proove it scientifically as you already know i cannot, all i was saying is that the word of God is not a fantasy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by NosyNed, posted 05-16-2003 2:14 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 05-16-2003 3:50 PM mike the wiz has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 39 of 84 (40443)
05-16-2003 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by mike the wiz
05-16-2003 2:20 PM


all i was saying is that the word of God is not a fantasy.
Right, but it's indistinguishable from one. Like all special revalation, third parties can't tell the difference between somebody recieving private messages from god and somebody who's lying about it.
For all you know the bible is a work of fiction that people mistakenly believe. I would point out that (especially at the time the bible was written) there's significant financial reward for starting religions, especially ones that tell you to donate all your worldly goods to the church or you won't get into heaven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by mike the wiz, posted 05-16-2003 2:20 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-16-2003 3:54 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 41 by Mister Pamboli, posted 05-16-2003 4:44 PM crashfrog has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 84 (40444)
05-16-2003 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by crashfrog
05-16-2003 3:50 PM


And if I'm not mistaken (which I might well be), wasn't it fairly common practice in the Roman Empire to deify political figures after they died?
------------------
-----------
Dan Carroll

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 05-16-2003 3:50 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by John, posted 05-16-2003 4:54 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7576 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 41 of 84 (40448)
05-16-2003 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by crashfrog
05-16-2003 3:50 PM


quote:
Right, but it's indistinguishable from (a fantasy). Like all special revalation, third parties can't tell the difference between somebody recieving private messages from god and somebody who's lying about it.
But third parties can assess whether the prophet is otherwise reliable or otherwise personally authoritative, and whether the messages passed on are in keeping with what they hold to be authoritative.
In the fifth chapter of Matthew, Jesus is reported as saying: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.
There is something extraordinary going on here. It's quite exceptional in the context of the time for someone to expand the teaching of a verse, not by exegesis, but by a straightforward appeal to their own authority. Why would anyone listen? Because Jesus of Nazareth, impressed sufficient personal authority to be taken seriously.
So third parties do have means of assessing the good faith, if not the objective truth (whatever that is), of a prophet. And naturally enough different third parties do this in their own ways, and we end up with a all sorts and conditions of religions based on who or what we take to be authoritative.
But to say that third parties cannot tell the difference is to too far. As human beings we have evolved myriad complex and subtle ways of understanding our fellows and assessing their unverifiable claims.
quote:
For all you know the bible is a work of fiction that people mistakenly believe.
I think it is pretty clear that whatever else it may be, the Bible is not one work, and of its many works, many are not fictional - mistaken, perhaps, but not a fiction.
quote:
I would point out that (especially at the time the bible was written) there's significant financial reward for starting religions, especially ones that tell you to donate all your worldly goods to the church or you won't get into heaven.
What time would that be - all through the history of Judaism and into the Greek diaspora? And where does it ask one to give all wordly goods to the church? The old testament closely regulates the tithes to be paid, which are certainly not all worldy goods and Jesus commends the ruler in Luke 18:22 to sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, not to the church.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 05-16-2003 3:50 PM crashfrog has not replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 84 (40449)
05-16-2003 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dan Carroll
05-16-2003 3:54 PM


The Caesars were 'gods' while they were still alive. No wonder the Romans were a bit cynical about religion, eh?
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-16-2003 3:54 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 43 of 84 (40554)
05-18-2003 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by mike the wiz
05-12-2003 8:50 PM


quote:
'Do you have faith in unicorns? - mentioned many times in the Bible. Do you have faith in fairies? If not, then we can call you faithless, too.'
but can you say you have faith in Jesus Christ who died for our sins.
a fairy doesn't grant me everlasting life , nor a unicorn , indeed the difference between these are obvious to see, please come up with something better than that , next you'll be asking me to worship a rock. lol.
You are missing the point.
You point to various things in the bible to "prove" that your religion is true. In fact, you reject all of modern Biology because you take as historical and literal certain sections of the bible.
Then someone points out that unicorns are mentioned in the Bible, and asks you if you believe in unicorns because they are in the Bible.
You say that you don't believe in unicorns.
Now, can't you see that you are being inconsistent, taking literally and holding hard to the exact wording of some sections of the bible and then turning around and just throwing some things completely away, such as the existence of unicorns?
If you believe that Jesius died for your sins, then great, but if you are going to pick and choose from biblical accounts what really happened or existed depending upon your own personal whim, then I fail to see how using the bible to support your particular arguments is any more meaningful than what anybody else does in any other sect of Christianity or in any other religion.
------------------
"Evolution is a 'theory', just like gravity. If you don't like it, go jump off a bridge."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 05-12-2003 8:50 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by mike the wiz, posted 05-18-2003 11:10 AM nator has replied
 Message 45 by mike the wiz, posted 05-18-2003 11:22 AM nator has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 44 of 84 (40565)
05-18-2003 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by nator
05-18-2003 8:30 AM


'Now, can't you see that you are being inconsistent, taking literally and holding hard to the exact wording of some sections of the bible and then turning around and just throwing some things completely away, such as the existence of unicorns?'
but i have never heard unicorns mentioned in the bible , its a big book and honestly i just have not read it all. and his point was that i should have faith in unicorns not if i believe in them , in fact faith in God has purpose and is a gift from God that he is more important than an animal IS obvious and i dont recall the bible telling me to have faith in animals.whether unicorns exist or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by nator, posted 05-18-2003 8:30 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by nator, posted 05-18-2003 7:20 PM mike the wiz has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 45 of 84 (40567)
05-18-2003 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by nator
05-18-2003 8:30 AM


why do you always pick on me schrafinator , i'm a nice boy .lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by nator, posted 05-18-2003 8:30 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by nator, posted 05-18-2003 7:28 PM mike the wiz has not replied

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