When Adam met Eve

The Fall: The original sin of Adam and Eve, and their expulsion from paradise and denial of immortality.Found in: Genesis chapter 3. It is recognized enough to have Bible translators put the words "The Fall" above Genesis 3. ah, now I see where you are coming from. hmmmm.... Since I am an Old Earther(we belive that physical death has been present since the beginning, though not spiritual death)the Fall was not a prehistoric beast who could leave a fossil record (LOL)nor was it a global clamatic upheaval that could leave traces in Geology, I would agree.Thanks for the advice And as for Adam not recognizing naked women: My Dog probably doesn't have any concept of "Nakedness" as we understand it. Probably Adam was the same way. And we really dont have enough info to debate over this area (This is a supernatural account, not a scientific one)

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

No such thing. We are all responsible for our own actions - no blaming Adam and Eve. "Expulsion", not "fall". And "Garden", not "Paradise". They never had immortality, so the was nothing to "lose", nowhere to "fall" from. Not in all translations or all editions. It's propaganda, pure and simple. A dramitic change in all the animals on earth wouldn't leave a fossil record? Come on. The "traces in geology" would be fossils of, say, snakes with legs. Where are they? Your dog can probably recognize a bitch in heat. Are you saying Adam was dumber than your dog? Sure we do. Just stop and ask yourself: what does "nakedness" really mean in Genesis 3? (Spiritually, not scientifically.)Edit: speeling.This message has been edited by Ringo, 2006-04-26 07:46 PM

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Although I agree we are responsible for our own actions, we still inherit the condemnation of Adam's sin. Check Romans 5:12-21. Note where it states "As one tresspass led to condemnation for all men" in the eitheenth chapter. Note that the context is relating to Adam's sin and how it's consequences where passed on to his descendants.They never had immortality, but they had every oppritunity to take it before their sin.What dramatic change in animals do you think would happen in the Fall?Gotta go. continue this later

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Only if you take Adam and Eve as real historical people. There is also no fossil evidence of a time when only two homo sapiens existed at one place in the world.It makes more sense to think of Adam and Eve as the "human race". Hence, each trespass leads to condemnation for each individual. Did they? You're the one who said that all animals were "cursed" along with the snake. The snake lost his ability to talk and (maybe?) his legs. What "curse" do you think was on the other animals, that wouldn't show up in the fossil record?

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"You may surely eat of [b]every[b] Tree of the Garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat, for in that day that you eat of it, you shall surely die." Genesis 2:16.And what was among the trees that Adam could eat from, other than the Tree of good and evil?The "Tree of Life" Genesis 2:9. Which God said later could make one "Immortal" Genesis 3:22. They therefore had ample oppritunity to become immortal before original sin. Did everybody who died in the past leave fossils? who said the curse could be seen in the fossil record? Who said it involed physical changes on all the other animals besides the serpent?

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Probably not, since he is neutered lol . And as far as I know, Humans cant tell if a woman is in heat by their smell, as Dogs do. And as far as I know, women dont go through "heat" anymore than men go through "Must" which male African Elephants do. Could heat in humans be a woman's period? Just asking.Dog's can sense if a bitch is in heat. Can they understand that the Dog is naked? Do they know our concept of nakedness? He knows how to obey better lol . are you just a tad bit to emmerse in semantics? Would it be better if it was called "The Great screw up"? Actually, the "Fall" has been part of Church Doctrine since ancient times (See pages 271-274 of "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs" by David W. Bercot. Read also "Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: Old testament, Genesis 1-11" Adrew Louth, pages 79-83)This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 04-27-2006 09:34 AM

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Of course not - it just seems a little too "convenient" that there is no evidence of your claims. You said that all the animals were "cursed". If the "curse" did not involve physical changes, what kind of "curse" was it?

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My point is that men can recognize a naked woman when they see one.Either Adam was dumber than a post - and "the Fall" was a huge improvement - or the story is not meant to be taken literally. It isn't semantics.There is a significant difference between a "Garden" and "Paradise". After all, Adam had to tend the garden. There is also a significant difference between being expelled from the garden and suffering some kind of catastrophic "fall".What the Bible describes is somebody being evicted from his house. What "Fallists" describe is somebody being evicted from a palace and becoming crippled for life at the same time - far more than a semantic difference. No. Because that still connotes an event. What we have in Genesis 3 is an explanation of why we have to work for a living, etc.Once again, your first clue that it is not meant to be taken as a literal event is the fact that they didn't notice they were naked. Are you ever going to address that point? Some churches - not all of them.

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Anymore than there is no Fossil evidence for the supposed "Unknown common ancestor" of all life that is spoken about in scientific circles (and gets a mention in Haine's and Chamber's "The Complete Guide To Prehistoric Life" on page 208)? There are some things as Curses or divine punishments that dont involve a physical change (Genesis 9:18-24, 1 Samuel 16:14-23)

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

I'm sure you can get lots and lots and lots and lots of debate on that in the appropriate threads. For this thread, suffice it to say you have no evidence for your claims? So what "curse" was there on all the animals?-------------Meanwhile, back at the topic, why do you think Genesis 3 was intended to be taken literally when Adam and Eve didn't even notice they were naked?

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Men today, not at the time of Adam and Eve before original sin. Just like an animal Adam and Eve did not have knowledge of "Nakedness". They didn't know what the word meant You know that some people actually enjoy garden work, dont you? Is it too cold for gardens in Alaska? And remember that the work wasn't hard or difficult until after the Fall (Genesis 3:17-19) You can read the rest of the Bible with it's stories of babies and animals and people being put to the sword, stonings, floods, prophecies of doom, and depictions of eternal damnation (which wouldn't have come about if the Fall didn't happen) and yet say that with a straight face? HAHAHAHAHA ROFLMAO!!! Adam and Eve had it made. They lived in a beautiful Garden (Some would call it "Paradise" dispite what you claim)had no worries, and only had to tend a garden and "fool around" and yet after the Fall they where cursed with severe birth pains, horrible working conditions, and a new future of countless ages of bloodshed, and you think it wans't catastrophic? I would think so LOL. You know that Genesis is a narrative, which describes events? Well, not the Church of scientology LOL. Certainly not the Gnostics (some of which didn't even keep the Old Testament)

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Do you have evidence against it? I've given plenty of evidence that Genesis 3 story is called "The Fall" and has been called as such since ancient times. You have not given the contrary, other than use of words. It's like saying the Bible doesn't have the Trinity because it doesn't use the word. Is it impossible for an Omnipotent God to make Adam and Eve not notice their nakedness, yet enjoy it? The idea that they didn't know that they where naked is no different from a Donkey talking in the Book of Numbers or the awe inspiring visions of Ezekiel.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

When you get a bad leader for a country, the people of that country will suffer. When you get a doofus for an elected leader of a democracy, the people of that democracy suffer. And when the one whom God gave dominion (rule) over the animals turns bad (ie eating of the forbidden fruit) then those he rules, the animals, will also suffer. Do I have to name all the species of animals that have died out because of sheer human stupidity?

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

So, they went from "just like animals" to humans, and you call that a "fall"? It isn't about the word.

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Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked....

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It was the fruit that made them notice their nakedness. It was an increase in perception, not a "fall". "The Fall' didn't happen. There was never a time when there were only two homo sapiens wandering the earth, too stupid to know they were naked. The story is an explanation of why we have to work for a living, etc. It is not a historical event. All I claim is what's in the Bible. Anybody who turns "garden" into "paradise" is writing fiction. No, it wasn't "catastrophic" because it wasn't an event. It didn't happen. It's an explanation of why we have to work for a living, etc. No, I most certainly do not "know" that.We know that the creation did not happen as depicted in Genesis 1 - or as in the completely different depiction in Genesis 2. We know that there were never just two homo sapiens wandering around the earth, too stupid to know they were naked. We know that the Flood never happened. And on and on....They were not real events. It is our responsibility to understand what the Bible really says.

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Once again, that's not the way it works. He who makes the claim must back it up. Exactly.They are not historical events. They are stories which have meaning beyond mere "news". By taking them as mere history, you miss the point entirely.

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