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Author Topic:   If, I say IF, I Were Creator Of Animals And Intelligent Creatures.............
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 31 of 38 (87939)
02-22-2004 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Buzsaw
02-22-2004 12:20 AM


How many years of running casinos, in your opinion Buz, does it take to make up for all the Indians killed and land taken? (That would be all the land us immigrants live on, btw.) Just curious. I know it must chap your ass that somebody besides a white person is getting a special benefit, but I wondered if you could just speculate for a moment.
When govt moves to square up the playing field
There's plenty of folks that would consider "squaring up the playing field" to mean "giving them back their continent." I'd say that would be about square.

This message is a reply to:
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Verzem
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 38 (87987)
02-22-2004 2:28 PM


I know that no one has made such a statement, but it occurs to me that the history of mankind is one of conquest the world over, and certainly not just in North America.
You can't just climb to the top of a mountain and lay claim to all of the lands you can see. Nowdays, things are settled in courts. But in yesteryear, issues were settled at the end of a gun, or at the point of a spear. A people just can't lay claim to more land than they can defend. It just has never worked.
I'm not saying these things are right, just stating the realities of it.
We don't have to feel guilty for the misdeeds of the past. We just need to embrace the positive adjustments we make in striding to not repeat them.
Verzem

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 33 of 38 (87989)
02-22-2004 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Verzem
02-22-2004 2:28 PM


verzem writes:
We don't have to feel guilty for the misdeeds of the past. We just need to embrace the positive adjustments we make in striding to not repeat them.
And we have a choice as to what our source of wisdom to guide our individual and collective conscience and rationale will be. What is the source of wisdom? The latest thinking? Ancient knowledge? Inner prayer. Or outer resolve!

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 38 (91485)
03-09-2004 10:44 PM


According to the prophecy of Jesus that his gospel would be preached worldwide to all nations, it is providential that the Christians came to America, if for no other reason than to fulfill that and Christianize the Western Hemisphere. He's promised to return and this must happen before he returns. It's all just one more reason to see that the Bible is accurate and it's prophecies will continue to be fulfilled as they have been so precisely in the past. After all, humanly speaking, some other religion could have come here rather than the little new doctrine of Jesus's day called Christianity.

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Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 38 (91504)
03-10-2004 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
03-09-2004 10:44 PM


Why, after reading this and some other posts earlier in this thread about the conquest of America, do I get the image of white superiority and racist tendencies?
So God created native Americans to be savagely persecuted by Europeans carrying God's will to build a 'Christian' nation?
Strange conception of god you have.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 36 of 38 (91505)
03-10-2004 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
03-09-2004 10:44 PM


Christianity was hardly "new" by the time it made it to America. And if you remember that prophecy came with a time limit which was long past, Og sorry, I forgot, You never found time to actually work out what it says, desite the fact that you chose it as your example of fulfilled prophecy.
Still at least you're being consistent with the idea that it is good to kill people and take their land.

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 37 of 38 (91531)
03-10-2004 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Andya Primanda
03-10-2004 2:21 AM


Why, after reading this and some other posts earlier in this thread about the conquest of America, do I get the image of white superiority and racist tendencies?
Probably because those were somewhere in the background of the era. However, that wasn't the driving force behind the colonialism in North and South America. The pattern here, set originally by the Spanish in the 16th Century, was one of conquest rather than exploitation.
Contrast what occurred in the Americas with the exploitative pattern of colonialism by first the Portuguese but mostly by the Dutch in your own nation's history. Indonesia was a prime example of commercial exploitation (vice conquest) by white Europeans. Occasionally brutal (as in the Dutch suppression of the Banten Peasant's Revolt led by Haji Abdel Karim, believed by some Indonesians to be the Mahdi, who proclaimed a perang sabil against whites in 1888), the form of colonialism practiced by the Dutch was geared toward commerce rather than control. As such, it was comparatively benign (if I can be pardoned for using that term in reference to occupation of a nation by a foreign power).
Native Americans, OTOH, after the Spanish had obliterated the Inca of Peru and the N'huatl-speaking civilizations around the Valley of Mexico (not to mention the Arawak and other tribes of the Caribbean), were unlucky enough to have nothing worth exploiting (from a European standpoint), except the land they stood on. The pattern was not one of commerce - it was conquest. Due to superior technology, superior organization, and superior military capability honed in the innumerable bloody wars of the European continent, any Native American group - an unorganized patchwork of independent tribal nations - that had the temerity to resist was ruthlessly eliminated. However, it wasn't racism, any more than removing an obstacle from a roadway is racism. There wasn't even much of the paternalistic "help the benighted heathens" that characterized much of British colonialism elsewhere (like India and East Africa). Like buzzsaw mentioned (although he's apparently proud of the fact rather than appalled), it was a case of "You've got it. We want it. And we're strong enough to take it. Get out of the way or die." Mostly, the Native Americans died. Not something to be particularly proud of. OTOH, since I'm not a Christian, I don't accept that the sins of the ancestors devolve on the descendents. So I don't see the need to apologize for something that occurred 200-400 years ago. The history of Man is full of similar examples. We're an aggressive, territorial species. It's the nature of the beast.
I suppose that's enough digression for this thread. Apologies to the thread originator, but I thought it necessary to provide a counter to the "European racism" idea.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2196 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 38 of 38 (91541)
03-10-2004 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
02-18-2004 4:51 PM


quote:
I'd only create one man, afterwards forming a helper which I would call woman, who I would create to be a helper mate for the man, the man being more or less head of the pair since two pesiding heads wouldn't work -- too much bickering.
So, God made women subservient to men?
How nice for men and how shitty for women.
God must not like women.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-10-2004]

I want to date, and shop, and hang out, and go to school, and save the world from unspeakable demons. You know...girly things." -Buffy

This message is a reply to:
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