What is your favorite comic book?

Come on - you're putting this art:
ahead of this?(Don't you think that looks a little like your avatar? Maybe it's just me. )In terms of writing I'll take Watterson or Moore (but Schultz was lame before I was even born) over Yukito Kishiro anyday, obviously. But the quality of their art - and it may just be that they have very different aims, but I read comics for the pictures, not the words - is light-years behind the full-color richness I see in the manga world.

Well first off, taking a strip each from one series that lasted a decade and another that lasted half a century is horribly unfair. But yeah, I'll place them squarely ahead. Watterson and Schulz, as I see it, have the ability to do more with about two or three lines than most artists can do in twenty panels. Is it simple? Undoubtedly. But simple in a very Raymond Carver sort of way. Economy of form, rather than skimping out. Both artists are writing simple characters with straightforward motivations. Complex or vibrant art would be entirely out of place.There's a wonderful Calvin and Hobbes strip from years back, which is one long silent panel. Suzie is face-down in a crushed, half-completed snowman. Calvin and Hobbes are covered in snow from head to foot, and pointing at one another screaming. There are sled tracks leading straight to where Suzie would have been standing, and the sled itself is up in a tree.This is what I think of when I think of Calvin and Hobbes. You look at that drawing, even if you've never read a C&H strip before, and you know what happened for at least five minutes before the moment in which the drawing takes place.That, my friend, is story-telling skillz.This is why, no matter how many people love him, I could never get behind Todd MacFarlane. No story-telling to his art at all. He draws a lovely single panel, but that's about it. If the artist isn't out to tell a story with what he/she draws, why are they doing comics in the first place?While that Marvel drawing you posted sure makes with the pretty, it shows me nothing but somebody standing with... I don't know, what is that... some sort of glowing ovaries?(As for the avatar, yeah, I think it's just you. )

Incidentally... to make a distinction:Simple, but not necessarily skilled: Simple, but quite definitely skilled:

Maybe we just like comics in a different way.I love C&H. Let's just make that clear. (Who doesn't?) But I don't read Calvin and Hobbes for the same kind of storytelling I want from a really rip-roaring mature adventure kind of comic. So I don't see that a simplified art style is as appropriate for telling a complicated science-fiction story as airbrushed, glinty, full saturated color.I mean, who would you pick to illustrate Dune: The Graphic Novel: Charles Schultz or Joe Madureria? (Although CS would be funny - "You're such a blockhead, Paul Atreides.")(Is it Pick on Scot Kurtz week or something? First Home - Penny Arcade and now you. )

Like a fool, I got rid of my collection..... Grrr

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I mean, who would you pick to illustrate Dune: The Graphic Novel: Charles Schultz or Joe Madureria?

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Actually, I'd pick Frank Quitely. But now we're into a whole different idea; the right artist for the right story.I love Katsuhiro Otomo. But I wouldn't ask him to illustrate a story like Jimmy Corrigan. Does it mean Otomo's not skilled? Not at all, Akira is one of the better sci-fi/adventure comics of all time. Jack Kirby is one of my personal heroes, but I wouldn't sit him down to pencil Jar of Fools or I Never Liked You.

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Is it Pick on Scot Kurtz week or something?

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Every week is pick on Scott Kurtz week!He's like that annoying fat kid who picks on the easy targets at recess, and you just wanna throw rocks at him because... damn it, look at him there, you just wanna throw some freakin' rocks at him!

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First Home - Penny Arcade and now you.

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Tycho and Kurtz have a pretty funny running "I rip on ya cuz I luv ya" thing going on. Kurtz gives as good as he gets.

I used to read spiderman, x-men, and fantastic four almost religiously when I was younger. So this may make the first time I am in agreement with messenjah.As fullbown comic book series go I think the above, and perhaps batman, are the best... or personal favorites since art is subjective.Graphic Novels, and cartoons are something completely different.Alan Moore has to be one of the best creators of Graphic Novels. I actually thought Watchmen was one of the best graphic novels ever. I can still pick it up at any time and just start reading. In fact, layered with so many styles and storylines I can pick and choose what to concentrate on.There are many great cartoonists. Peanuts was great, even if tame, and eventually lame. Calvin and Hobbes was definitely better.But to my mind the best cartoon series was Segar's original Popeye series. One might even include his Thimble Theater, but that is what I think allowed him time to develop the environment necessary to create Popeye.While not as visually stunning as Little Nemo, it was still captivating, with storylines that were semi-epic in that same style. And the tales were actually pretty mature.What producers did to Popeye after Segar's death should have been a crime. Points to anyone who knows where Popeye actually got his strength (and no it was not freakin' spinach). A wonderful cartoon, and a genius artist, was destroyed by the mediocre minds who wanted to keep mining money off his memory.Segar's style was adopted and adapted by generations of cool artists aftward including Robert Crumb, who went on to influence so many more artists.Points to Dan for mentioning Peter Bagge and in a way Chris Ware (via Jimmy Corrigan), and MrH for Clowes. How about Joe Matt's peepshow series?Well I guess we were talking about favorite of all time.In that case I think Chris Ware is the only current cartoonist in that league. MrH, if you have not read anything by Chris Ware, run to a comic store. His humor is so subtle yet damaging to the psyche I'm sure he'd be right up your alley.------------------
holmes

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I used to read spiderman, x-men, and fantastic four almost religiously when I was younger. So this may make the first time I am in agreement with messenjah.

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As fullbown comic book series go I think the above, and perhaps batman, are the best... or personal favorites since art is subjective.

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It depends on what run you're reading. The Romita run on Spiderman is a contender, as is the Claremont/Byrne X-Men, or the Walt Simonson FF. (Although Kirby FF stomps them all in the nutsack until they die.) But god damn... read some Lobdell X-Men, or whatever hacks they've had doing Spiderman or FF down the years... you want to vomit until you die of dehydration.And I know people like Byrne's FF run, but I don't.Same deal with Batman... for every Year One or Killing Joke, there are 500 horrific Batman stories to contend with.

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Graphic Novels, and cartoons are something completely different.

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Why's that? Sandman was a monthly, serialized comic like X-Men for almost ten years. Swamp Thing for even longer. Eightball, Hate, Love & Rockets, etc.I've never been crazy about different standards for different genres. There are superhero writers and artists who step up to the plate and deliver something on par with the very best. They're rare, but they're out there. It almost seems... I don't know, disrespectful to their efforts to judge them off in a different category.

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Alan Moore has to be one of the best creators of Graphic Novels. I actually thought Watchmen was one of the best graphic novels ever. I can still pick it up at any time and just start reading. In fact, layered with so many styles and storylines I can pick and choose what to concentrate on.

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To me, Watchmen is like a clock without hands to tell time. Sure, the gears are put together in a beautifully intricate fashion. But ultimately, there's very little beyond the intricacy to reccomend it.As the first mainstream comic to try something techincally ambitious, it holds a special place in my heart. But that's about it. Especially since Moore went on to write From Hell, which I loves so much, yes I do.

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There are many great cartoonists. Peanuts was great, even if tame, and eventually lame. Calvin and Hobbes was definitely better.

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That depends. If you look at the last ten years, when Schulz couldn't even hold his pen steady, yeah. Calvin and Hobbes towered over it. But I'd be hard pressed to find a better daily strip than Peanuts in the mid-to-late sixties."Tame" is not the word I'd use for sixties Peanuts. "Human Misery on Parade," maybe. That comic was pretty much Jimmy Corrigan a few decades ahead of schedule.

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But to my mind the best cartoon series was Segar's original Popeye series. One might even include his Thimble Theater, but that is what I think allowed him time to develop the environment necessary to create Popeye.

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I am woefully underinformed on Popeye. Do you know of any collections that exist?Fun trivia though: Kirby's first job was working in Fleischer animation studios, doing Popeye cartoon cells.

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How about Joe Matt's peepshow series?

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Matt's good. I guess. I'd put him in with Jules Feiffer, Chester Brown, or Glenn Dakin, or any number of other talented cartoonists who just don't make the "of all time" cut, you know? I actually wouldn't have put Bagge in if the conversation was focusing there initially. He's a personal fave, not a best.[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 10-06-2003]

I totally agree with this assessment. However, I took the question to mean warts and all as an entire series which stood out for you as your favorite.X-men totally took a dive which is about the time I stopped buying comic books. One of the spiderman titles was still solid at the time, but another had turn to fluff.So I'm just asking myself if I had to have a whole series which would I want? Which stayed with me as having some impact? I still stand by my choices. I consider Sandman and Swamp Thing to be comic books. Personally I just never cared for Swamp Thing. It just never seemed to go anywhere, like it couldn't get any footing in all the muck. Maybe it just didn't meet the expectations I had for something called "swamp thing."Sandman I simply haven't read. I guess I have to now.I realize they were both made into Graphic Novels but I'll explain what I meant by that in a bit.As for the other genres I'd say love and rockets was a comic book series but Hate and Eightball were cartoons.Why? Because of the style. That is it.To me a series is a series no matter what the subject and style. A Graphic Novel is a one shot story line (even if originally presented in parts) and could be any subject or style but so far have been serious or dark in nature.Again according to my definition, Comic style or subjects try to capture some realism about human shapes. Cartoons are not bound by and generally try to elude realism in form.I actually don't want to have different standards for the different forms, but I recognize there will be some difference in what characteristics are most important to judge for each form.Sorry you didn't like Watchmen, but that's why art is totally subjective. The mutiple storylines using essentially different media within one book was not only innovative, but I found interesting. I was not excited by From Hell. It just didn't seem as layered. Or maybe it just wasn't as original in concept (yeah yeah I know Watchmen came from an Outer Limits episode, but still...).I am with you on Schultz. I was trying to make the point that it was quite important, and yes it was a totally dark anti-hero he had created for children. It's just that visually and in written word it was not as overt and so seemingly "tame" by today's standards. Heck, I'd say most people looking at Chris Ware would find it tame on the surface.On popeye, there are a few collections out and around on eBay I think. Maybe you can even find them at some local comic book stores. Once I get a firm place to live I am going to hunt them all down. You can pick up some weaker collections though at Borders and Barnes and Nobles. Every once in a while another gets put out.The problem with most Popeye collections is that it focuses on Popeye, instead of its creator Segar. That's when you end up with all the dreck that followed. If you are looking for a good collection, make sure it doesn't go later than 1939.I think there is one collection of Segar's work which will be the focus of my hot pursuit. I'm assuming that will also include all of his thimble theater stuff.The best collection I had tried to focus on Segar and a number of the series which led to Popeye, plus some of the longest running Popeye storylines he had.I agree with the pantheon of talent you placed Joe Matt, though personally I never got into Chester or Seth. Bagge was cooler.------------------
holmes

Well, I think for sheer mastery of the art of presenting intricate detail in the most simplistic style, Al Hirschfeld beats the tar out of everyone. He could do more with a single line than most artists can do with an entire canvas of paint.And even when he was being more realistic rather than caricature, you could tell he knew how to handle his pen:[Oh...and the Whiffle Hen....]------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

On the debate on best artists:
What about Todd McFarlane, his artwork is really good.
Look at Spawn #64 for my favorite cover. Or the covers from the no longer running "Cy-Gor"
series. Well I should say McFarlane and his crew because he didn't do the Cy-Gor covers, so just look at his Spider-man work.

rrhain scores.------------------
holmes

Hey man, it's cool. Ain't no problems with Hirschfeld here.

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X-men totally took a dive which is about the time I stopped buying comic books.

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Actually, you might want to pick up the recent run by Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely. Fun stuff. The first collection is called "E is For Extinction"

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Sandman I simply haven't read. I guess I have to now.

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Uh... YEAH.I don't mean that as a slam at you, I just mean DAMN, man, you're missing out.

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As for the other genres I'd say love and rockets was a comic book series but Hate and Eightball were cartoons.

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Why? Because of the style. That is it.

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Um... you might want to elaborate. The definition I've always heard is cartoon = one panel, comic = multiple panels. That's why I didn't bring up guys like Hirschfield (but wouldn't argue against the talent. Only a damn fool gets into an argument he can't win.)

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To me a series is a series no matter what the subject and style. A Graphic Novel is a one shot story line (even if originally presented in parts) and could be any subject or style but so far have been serious or dark in nature.

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You need to read up, big guy. A lot's happened in the last ten years. Hm... maybe it's time for a new reccomended reading list...

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Sorry you didn't like Watchmen, but that's why art is totally subjective. The mutiple storylines using essentially different media within one book was not only innovative, but I found interesting.

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Oh, don't get me wrong. I like Watchmen. I just don't see it as the Holy Grail of comics that most seem to see it as.As I said... technically stunning. But at the end of the day, what does it give us? The knowledge that, when you get right down to it, dressing up in tight spandex and beating the crap out of people is a little creepy?Yep. Thanks, Alan. Never would'a guessed.

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The problem with most Popeye collections is that it focuses on Popeye, instead of its creator Segar. That's when you end up with all the dreck that followed. If you are looking for a good collection, make sure it doesn't go later than 1939.

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Nice, thanks for the heads-up.The next strip collections I'm eager for is that Fantagraphics is reprinting the complete Peanuts... ever strip ever published. Yee-haw!

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I agree with the pantheon of talent you placed Joe Matt, though personally I never got into Chester or Seth. Bagge was cooler.

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Oh, Bagge's way cooler. That's what happens when your 1992 comic is about slackers in Seattle who are drinking and fucking, instead of about a lonely Canadian man who likes 50s memorabilia. But I'd reccomend giving Seth and Brown another read-through. It's a Good Life If You Don't Weaken is a solid read, and I Never Liked You is one of my personal faves.[Edited for stupid formatting mistake][This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 10-07-2003]

He's not bad, but I certainly can't rank him as one of the best. This is of course not to say you are wrong. It is completely subjective. I'll have to dig around and hopefully find the names of the other comic book artists that really inspired me.One of my tops (whose name I can remember) is P Craig Russel.------------------
holmes