Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   You're either straight, gay, or lying?
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 136 of 158 (512269)
06-15-2009 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by onifre
06-15-2009 5:40 PM


Re: Feel the need to start more shit...
It is not good to see a friend who finds out after 22 years that his son can in no biological way be his and his wife told him the kid was his and HE DID THE RIGHT THING and married her.
Your friend is an idoit.
And a crappy father. After 22 years isn't he his sons father. Why does the news make any difference? Its his own damn fault if he was stuck in a marriage he didn't want. He had choices. I feel sorry for the son.
I have a son that is 26. My ex and I adopted him when he was 13. He is as much my son as any biological son is to his biological parents. There shouldn't be more or less love because of the biological circumstances. If there is then somebody has some serious issues and should have never been a parent in the first place.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by onifre, posted 06-15-2009 5:40 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by onifre, posted 06-15-2009 6:36 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 137 of 158 (512271)
06-15-2009 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Theodoric
06-15-2009 5:49 PM


Re: Feel the need to start more shit...
And a crappy father. After 22 years isn't he his sons father. Why does the news make any difference? Its his own damn fault if he was stuck in a marriage he didn't want. He had choices. I feel sorry for the son.
I have a son that is 26. My ex and I adopted him when he was 13. He is as much my son as any biological son is to his biological parents. There shouldn't be more or less love because of the biological circumstances. If there is then somebody has some serious issues and should have never been a parent in the first place.
Well said. To this day my ex-fiances son is like a son to me. I still call to find out how he's doing, something his biological father has never done. I love(d) that kid as if he was my own. When we went out I introduced him as my kid, paid for his things whenever needed, and was there for all of his school functions like a normal parent.
That's really cool of you to adopt, theodoric. If ever possible I would love to do that, too. Not now though, for now I'll keep living my "Sucky Life", but in the future, maybe.
* Still no word from, Petro, though. I'm starting to worry...you don't think, god forbid, something happened to him? Heavens no...
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Theodoric, posted 06-15-2009 5:49 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 138 of 158 (512370)
06-17-2009 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by onifre
06-15-2009 8:57 AM


onifre responds to me:
quote:
quote:
Are you about to say that the refining of the active ingredient somehow makes it something other than a plant?
Yes...it makes it a drug.
Huh? Why?
Besides, you just contradicted yourself. Perhaps you should back up a second and state directly what you mean by "pure" and "not pure."
quote:
Coca leaves, all though do boost your energy similar to actual cocaine, is still just a leaf and not a drug.
And why do you think chewing coca leaves do what they do?
Because they contain cocaine alkaloids.
You're pointing in the direction of saying that there is something different about a molecule of ascorbic acid made inside an orange when compared to a molecule of ascorbic acid made in a test tube.
Why does the fact that other chemicals come along for the ride change anything?
quote:
What chemical is extracted from cannabis?
(*blink!*)
You did not just say that, did you? You seriously don't know?
quote:
Marijuana is pure, it's the bud from a flower.
See what I mean about defining what you mean by "pure" and "not pure"? How can a substance made of literally hundreds of chemical compounds be "pure"?
quote:
I choose science.
(*chuckle*)
Yeah...sure. Whatever. If that's how you justify yourself....

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by onifre, posted 06-15-2009 8:57 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by onifre, posted 06-17-2009 9:06 AM Rrhain has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 139 of 158 (512391)
06-17-2009 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Rrhain
06-17-2009 6:13 AM


Is anything in your response supposed to tell me what you mean?
I tried to be clear.
Cannabis is a plant. Coca is a plant.
Don't know what else to tell you.
Why does the fact that other chemicals come along for the ride change anything?
Because it stop being just a plant.
Cannabis is a plant. Coca is a plant. Cocaine is a drug that no longer keeps the purity of just the coca leaf.
Or just explain what you mean?
You did not just say that, did you? You seriously don't know?
yeah THC, but I meant...a fuck it you got me on that one.
Actually what I meant was that it's not extracted and mixed with other compounds to actualy form the "drug", marijuana is pure in that sense.
See what I mean about defining what you mean by "pure" and "not pure"? How can a substance made of literally hundreds of chemical compounds be "pure"?
Pure, as in just the bud from a plant. Cocaine is not pure, the leaf is pure and again just a leaf from a plant.
Yeah...sure. Whatever. If that's how you justify yourself....
Rrhain, do you really think I seek justification for smoking pot?
I have no clue what you're even arguing against...
Cannabis is a plant, right? Coca is a plant, right?
Now, why are they also considered drugs?
Explain what you mean...
- Oni

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Rrhain, posted 06-17-2009 6:13 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by NosyNed, posted 06-17-2009 9:55 AM onifre has replied
 Message 149 by Rrhain, posted 06-18-2009 11:13 PM onifre has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 140 of 158 (512392)
06-17-2009 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by onifre
06-17-2009 9:06 AM


Pure?
I think you need to define what you mean by "pure".
Cocaine is a drug that no longer keeps the purity of just the coca leaf.
Cocaine is more "pure" than the leaf.
From dictionary.com:
quote:
1. free from anything of a different, inferior, or contaminating kind; free from extraneous matter: pure gold; pure water.
2. unmodified by an admixture; simple or homogeneous.
3. of unmixed descent or ancestry: a pure breed of dog.
Since the cocaine is in the leaf with other chemicals when it is extracted (purified is used later in the process) it is more pure than it was in the leaf.
Since, by that definition of pure, your comments make no sense at all I think you need to define your use of the word.
Does it mean "belonging to holy, pure mother nature?" or something?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by onifre, posted 06-17-2009 9:06 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by onifre, posted 06-17-2009 10:59 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 141 of 158 (512396)
06-17-2009 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by NosyNed
06-17-2009 9:55 AM


A plant is a plant of course, of course...
I think you need to define what you mean by "pure".
Since my point was simply that coca/cannnabis are just plants, what I mean by "pure" is "in it's pure, natural form"...or "natural state".
In that sense, they are not drugs, they are plants.
I believe I explained it Rrhain in Message 134 fairly clear.
Oni writes:
quote:
I said nothing about "derived from". I'm talking about in its pure state. Cannabis: Plant. Coca: Plant.
I guess I should have added, "in it's pure, natural state.
Since the cocaine is in the leaf with other chemicals when it is extracted (purified is used later in the process) it is more pure than it was in the leaf.
I understand. But now we're talking about street purity, as in, this is pure cocaine. Which I agree does qualify as "pure" in the drug sense.
But my point was that cannabis, as in the plant, and coca, as in the plant, should not be classified as drugs, because they are not...they are plants in their "pure natural state."
We don't classify glue as a drug, it is sold as glue. It's legal to sell. It becomes a drug when people use it to alter their state of mind, but it doesn't stop being legally sold glue, ever.
The same should be for cannabis, or coca. The never stop being plants. The law deems a plant illegal. Well, if that plant is deemed illegal in it's natural state then why isn't glue also deemed illegal in it's natural state? Or for that matter, any other product that can get you high?
That's my point. They are plants not drugs...in their pure, natural state/form.
Does it mean "belonging to holy, pure mother nature?" or something?
Yes. And Rrhain understood that he just wants to make an argument of it. We were talking about the plant, whether the plant was a drug or just a plant. He hasn't given his position on it yet. What would you classify cannabis and coca as? Likewise, what would you classify glue as?
Heroin, cocaine, extacy, meth, LSD, etc are not plants, they are drugs like tylenol, prozac, viagra, etc. Cannabis, coca, moss, ferns, etc, are plants...I don't see where the argument is, and Rrhain hasn't presented one.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by NosyNed, posted 06-17-2009 9:55 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Perdition, posted 06-17-2009 12:28 PM onifre has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 142 of 158 (512404)
06-17-2009 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by onifre
06-17-2009 10:59 AM


Re: A plant is a plant of course, of course...
I would say that a drug is anything being used to alter the chemistry on a person's brain.
Glue, when sold and used as glue, is not a drug. When it is huffed, it becomes a drug because it's intended goal has changed. Cannabis is a plant, and remains a plant, but the moment it is smoked, it's intended goal is a change in the inhaler's brain chemistry making it simultaneously a plant and a drug.
Your argument seems to be that drug and plant are mutually exclusive terms. It seems similar to claiming that if I fed someone hemlock and they died, I could not be charged with poisoning them because what I used was a plant, not poison. At most, I could be charged with planting them, which brings a whole different picture to mind...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by onifre, posted 06-17-2009 10:59 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by onifre, posted 06-17-2009 12:50 PM Perdition has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 143 of 158 (512405)
06-17-2009 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Perdition
06-17-2009 12:28 PM


Re: A plant is a plant of course, of course...
I would say that a drug is anything being used to alter the chemistry on a person's brain.
Sure. That means viagra, prozac, and the like, are drugs. Equally, at the point of usage, certain plants can alter the chemistry of your brain. But that is not the limit of their use, like glue, they have other functions that have nothing to do with altering the brain.
When applied in this fashion cannabis is not a drug. It is a plant that has many uses, one of which happens to be, altering the chemistry of the brain. But at this point so is glue, whipped cream, and paint. But cannabis can also be used for clothing, at that point it is not a drug, right?
You can use a knife to kill, but you can also use it to cut meat. So is it a "murdering device" or a "kitchen aid"...?
You can make certain uses illegal, like killing someone with a knife, but you can't make the knife, or cannabis plant, illegal when they have many unharmful functions.
Shit, even chocolate alters the chemistry in ones brain.
Glue, when sold and used as glue, is not a drug.
Cannabis when sold as a plant is not a drug. It's a potential pair of pants, shoes, shirt, etc...Or simply a household plant, like a fern.
When it is huffed, it becomes a drug because it's intended goal has changed. Cannabis is a plant, and remains a plant, but the moment it is smoked, it's intended goal is a change in the inhaler's brain chemistry making it simultaneously a plant and a drug.
At that point, so is paint, whipped cream, and glue. When things are used for the purpose of getting high it no longer is what it was originally intended for. But this isn't strictly for plants.
Your argument seems to be that drug and plant are mutually exclusive terms. It seems similar to claiming that if I fed someone hemlock and they died, I could not be charged with poisoning them because what I used was a plant, not poison.
My argument is simply:
Cannabis, as the plant, is not a drug and should be legal. Just as glue, paint, etc, as "glue" and "paint", should not be considered "drugs" and are sold legally. You can make using for other purposes illegal, and state which purposes that would be, as is done with glue, etc, but why make the plant illegal when in that plant-like state it is not a drug anymore than glue in it's glue-like state is not a drug?
[ABE]Let me give another example: If getting drunk was deemed illegal, and possession of beer for the intended purpose of getting drunk was also deemed illegal, would that automatically makes hops and barley illegal also?[ABE]
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
Edited by onifre, : added beer question

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Perdition, posted 06-17-2009 12:28 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Perdition, posted 06-17-2009 12:59 PM onifre has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 144 of 158 (512406)
06-17-2009 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by onifre
06-17-2009 12:50 PM


Re: A plant is a plant of course, of course...
My argument is simply:
Cannabis, as the plant, is not a drug and should be legal. Just as glue, paint, etc, as "glue" and "paint", should not be considered "drugs" and are sold legally. You can make using for other purposes illegal, and state which purposes that would be, as is done with glue, etc, but why make the plant illegal when in that plant-like state it is not a drug anymore than glue in it's glue-like state is not a drug?
I would agree. I was just pointing out that while cannabis is a plant, it can also be a drug.
That means viagra, prozac, and the like, are drugs.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that. That's why they're manufactured by drug companies. The gubment, however, differentiates between recreational drugs and medicinal ones, and of course, the demarcation is arbitrary and inconsistent to the extreme.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by onifre, posted 06-17-2009 12:50 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by onifre, posted 06-17-2009 1:06 PM Perdition has not replied
 Message 146 by onifre, posted 06-18-2009 12:58 PM Perdition has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 145 of 158 (512408)
06-17-2009 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Perdition
06-17-2009 12:59 PM


Re: A plant is a plant of course, of course...
I was just pointing out that while cannabis is a plant, it can also be a drug.
You don't have to point that out to me.
Me knows and me likie.
The gubment, however, differentiates between recreational drugs and medicinal ones, and of course, the demarcation is arbitrary and inconsistent to the extreme.
Agreed! Marijuana is both recreational and medicinal, yet illegal, because it causes adults to wake up to the reality that it's all fake, society is full of shit, and hard work is pointless.
- Oni

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Perdition, posted 06-17-2009 12:59 PM Perdition has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 146 of 158 (512484)
06-18-2009 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Perdition
06-17-2009 12:59 PM


Re: A plant is a plant of course, of course...
Hi Perdition,
I would agree. I was just pointing out that while cannabis is a plant, it can also be a drug.
I wanted to add something to this statement.
While I agree that cannabis can also be used as a drug, that is not it's only function. In fact, the non-drug functions is far greater than many other products.
So why do we signal out one particular thing, like the cannabis plant, but not other things, like glue or paint, that can also be used as drugs.
The point is in the usage. You can make certain uses illegal, like stabing someone with a knife, but not the knife itself. You can make sniffing glue illegal, but not glue. Likewise, you can make smoking cannabis illegal, but not the cannabis plant.
If we signal out one thing then we should signal out all things that have the potential to get you high. Cannabis is a plant but it can also be a drug, agreed, but equally so, glue is a product to bind things but it can also be a drug...right?
- Oni

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Perdition, posted 06-17-2009 12:59 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Perdition, posted 06-18-2009 2:26 PM onifre has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 147 of 158 (512496)
06-18-2009 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by onifre
06-18-2009 12:58 PM


Re: A plant is a plant of course, of course...
I agree. However, there can, perhaps, be probability of use considered. Currently, if a person is growing cannabis in a hydroponic garden in their attic, is it more probable that it is going to be intended for drug use or for weaving?
I don't think cannabis should be illegal while tobacco is legal. It's inconsistent and just makes no sense from even a trivial knowledge of the dangers in each plant. So, in this specific instance, I can agree with your implied point that cannabis shouldn't be illegal. However, looking at probable use is a valid reason for disallowing something.
For instance, stores in my area are now required to limit the amount of cold medicines that contain ephedrine (I believe) because it is being used in meth labs. When someone is buying gallons of cough medicine, the intended usage becomes apparent, wouldn't you say?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by onifre, posted 06-18-2009 12:58 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by onifre, posted 06-18-2009 2:40 PM Perdition has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 148 of 158 (512499)
06-18-2009 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Perdition
06-18-2009 2:26 PM


Re: A plant is a plant of course, of course...
Currently, if a person is growing cannabis in a hydroponic garden in their attic, is it more probable that it is going to be intended for drug use or for weaving?
Well when all other avenues of usage have been shut down, for instance if I wanted to start a clothing company using only hemp products, I can't turn to any farmer and ask him to grow cannabis for my non-drug related use.
The current narrow avenue for cannabis is only for drug use, but in countries where it is legal to grow and manufacture as clothing or a long list of other products, to include medicine, there isn't such a narrow avenue. Basically, we've currently pigeon-holed growers to make cannabis for only drug use, but that is only because the market to manufacture it for other uses is closed.
This type of narrow avenue has also been the spring board for drug cartels. If US farmers grew cannabis it would greatly eliminate the cartels. And a mass growing of the plant would make other uses readily available to manufactures of many different products. Then the stigma of just for drug use can be removed.
For instance, stores in my area are now required to limit the amount of cold medicines that contain ephedrine (I believe) because it is being used in meth labs. When someone is buying gallons of cough medicine, the intended usage becomes apparent, wouldn't you say?
I agree that some regulation is necessary. And some control would effectively cut down on the illegal uses, but that also applies for many other products that are harmful, not only as drugs but other things that can cause damage.
- Oni

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Perdition, posted 06-18-2009 2:26 PM Perdition has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 149 of 158 (512554)
06-18-2009 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by onifre
06-17-2009 9:06 AM


onifre responds to me:
quote:
Cannabis is a plant. Coca is a plant.
How does that make the chemical inside the plant something other than a "drug"?
You're pointing in the direction that leads to the claim that a molecule created through a biological process is somehow different than the exact same molecule created through a synthetic process.
What is it about cellulose walls encasing the chemical that makes it different from when it is surrounded by a gelatin capsule?
quote:
Because it stop being just a plant.
So? Why is that important? Why does the fact that other chemicals come along for the ride change anything?
quote:
Or just explain what you mean?
Nice try, but you're the one making the claim. Therefore, you're the one who needs to explain yourself. I'm simply asking why you're making a distinction between a chemical wrapped up in cellulose and the exact same chemical wrapped up in gelatin.
quote:
Pure, as in just the bud from a plant.
How is that "pure"? It's got myriad other chemicals coming along for the ride.
quote:
Cocaine is not pure, the leaf is pure and again just a leaf from a plant.
Huh? What do you mean by "pure"? How can something that is a mish-mash of hundreds of different chemicals be "pure" compared to something that's made of only one?
Why does the fact that other chemicals come along for the ride change anything?
quote:
do you really think I seek justification for smoking pot?
You wouldn't be making this distinction about "pure" if you didn't find a need to justify it.
quote:
Explain what you mean...
Nice try. That's your job.
You're the one making the claim.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by onifre, posted 06-17-2009 9:06 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by onifre, posted 06-19-2009 7:10 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 150 of 158 (512578)
06-19-2009 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Rrhain
06-18-2009 11:13 PM


I refer you to this message Message 141 to explain what I meant by pure.
My only point is that cannabis is a plant not a drug.
How does that make the chemical inside the plant something other than a "drug"?
Cannabis is a plant before it's a drug. One of it's uses happens to be drug related but it's still just a plant.
Honestly, Rrhain, I have no idea what you're arguing against...
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Rrhain, posted 06-18-2009 11:13 PM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Taz, posted 07-26-2011 11:47 AM onifre has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024