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Author Topic:   Mimicry and neodarwinism
Belfry
Member (Idle past 5202 days)
Posts: 177
From: Ocala, FL
Joined: 11-05-2005


Message 76 of 188 (347958)
09-10-2006 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by MartinV
09-10-2006 3:23 PM


Aposematism
MartinV writes:
Wasps (hornets) are aposematics, bees are cryptic.
Say what? In what way are bees generally cryptic as opposed to aposematic?
Superfamily Apoidea has lots of aposematic species - they're really some of the classic examples of it. Those Eristalis species usually mimic those bright, contrasting color patterns.
As an aside, one of my favorite cerambycid (longhorn beetle) genera, Neoclytus, has a number of species that mimic wasps as adults, like this N. acuminatus:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by MartinV, posted 09-10-2006 3:23 PM MartinV has not replied

Belfry
Member (Idle past 5202 days)
Posts: 177
From: Ocala, FL
Joined: 11-05-2005


Message 89 of 188 (348182)
09-11-2006 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by MartinV
09-11-2006 4:53 PM


MartinV writes:
Wasp are aposematic, bees not.
You still haven't supported this statement.
MartinV writes:
But why do not bees protect themselves also by aposematism
They do, in many species. You say that the European honey bees you're familiar with are cryptic? We are talking about Apis mellifera here, right? With the classic yellow and black stripes on the abdomen? Like this one:
Also, that first picture of Eristalis tenax you linked to (although oddly, you seemed to indicate that the link was for a honey bee) wasn't exactly typical of its patterning. Here's a dorsal view, showing a typical (and aposematic) patterning of that species, yellow and black:
I'd love to see these cryptic honeybees you're talking about!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by MartinV, posted 09-11-2006 4:53 PM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by MartinV, posted 09-12-2006 11:36 AM Belfry has replied

Belfry
Member (Idle past 5202 days)
Posts: 177
From: Ocala, FL
Joined: 11-05-2005


Message 91 of 188 (348199)
09-11-2006 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by MartinV
09-11-2006 4:53 PM


MartinV writes:
Mushroom are really interesting, totally overlooked by darwinists.
They did not exist for them.
I was so interested in your statements about bees that I didn't even see this until I read WK's response.
Please, please start a new thread about how mushrooms don't exist for evolutionary biology!
Or, you save yourself the embarrassment and actually look it up. Try doing a search at scholar.google.com for "fungus evolution."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by MartinV, posted 09-11-2006 4:53 PM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by MartinV, posted 09-12-2006 11:40 AM Belfry has replied

Belfry
Member (Idle past 5202 days)
Posts: 177
From: Ocala, FL
Joined: 11-05-2005


Message 104 of 188 (348486)
09-12-2006 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by MartinV
09-12-2006 11:36 AM


cryptic honeybees
MartinV writes:
According wikipedia there are 20,000 species of bees.
Yes, but you said "honeybees."
MartinV writes:
I have no doubt, that there are some of them, that looks like
aposematics. But the question remains - is there realy different selective pressure on them, that some of them are cryptic and some of them aposematic?
Of course, every population of any type of organism will both experience both a different selective environment and have a different history of mutations for selection to act upon. Where's the big mystery?
MartinV writes:
These honeybees do seem anything but aposematic:
File:Honeybee thermal defence01.jpg - Wikipedia
I disagree; that picture does not show off the aposematism very well, but it's still there. The fact that you found a picture of them in a relatively low-light situation against a brown background does not negate the fact that they have the yellow-and-black striped abdomen that is instantly recognizable by anyone.
And in any case, particularly by the standards you're using to evaluate honeybees, I could give many examples of wasps that are not aposematic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by MartinV, posted 09-12-2006 11:36 AM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by NosyNed, posted 09-12-2006 5:46 PM Belfry has not replied
 Message 108 by MartinV, posted 09-13-2006 11:29 AM Belfry has not replied

Belfry
Member (Idle past 5202 days)
Posts: 177
From: Ocala, FL
Joined: 11-05-2005


Message 106 of 188 (348488)
09-12-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by MartinV
09-12-2006 11:40 AM


MartinV writes:
There are 11 results for "fungus evolution" at scholar.google. Which one of them would you reccomend me? Which one of them give comprehensive neodarwinian account for astonishing shape/colour diversity of mushroom sporocarps?
Thank you.
You have to take off the quotes when doing a google search, or you end up searching for that exact phrase. Without the quotes, you get well over 30,000 hits.
Remember, the statement you're defending is this one, from Message 88:
MartinV writes:
Mushroom are really interesting, totally overlooked by darwinists.
They did not exist for them.
{Edit: By the way, with regard to morphological diversity of mushrooms, you seem to be working on the assumption that within the evolutionary model, the different appearances of fungal fruiting bodies must serve some special adaptive function or purpose. In some cases that may be true, but it is not necessarily the case. Are you familiar with the term, "spandrel?"}
Edited by Belfry, : Marked addition

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Replies to this message:
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