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Author Topic:   Mimicry and neodarwinism
jar
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Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 3 of 188 (344656)
08-29-2006 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by MartinV
08-29-2006 7:00 AM


Actually, I don't see much of a problem with mimicry.
I've never been able to see where or why anyone sees mimicry as some unusual problem for classic evolution. What we see as mimicry is just a history, a snapshot taken at one point in the trip.
One of my favorite examples is a recent study on mimicry among poison dart frogs in areas where more than one species of poison dart frog exists. What I enjoyed most about the study is that it seems the most successful mimics are those that mimic the less poisonous variety.
When I first heard that I was surprised. Why wouldn't the ones that looked like the most poisonous species be more successful?
Then I stopped to think about it.
Predators that try to eat the most poisonous species likely die while learning. Those that try to eat the less poisonous species might survive, but remember the experience.
The former learn their lesson, but the don't retain it. They dead. The later learn their lesson and in the future avoid anything that looks like what made them sick.
The result is that the frogs that look like the less poisonous species have an advantage over those that look like the more poisonous ones.
Pretty neat. Simple, elegant and absolutely no need for any intervention.
You can see the abstract here

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 48 of 188 (347279)
09-07-2006 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Wounded King
09-06-2006 5:09 PM


Re: Heliconius
One question which I hope does not take us too far astray.
In many species of insects, IIRC, the sole function of the adult stage is to lay eggs. Again, IIRC, many of the adult stage critters do not even have the equipment needed to feed, Luna moths and Mayflies come to mind.
In these critters the sole purpose of the male is to found by a female so he can fertilize eggs, the male needs to be found. The female on the otherhand must live long enough to find a place, or in many cases several places, to lay eggs. Of necessity this means staying in one place for a considerable period of time.
It would seem to me that anything that would increase the likelyhood of not being eaten while laying eggs would provide an advantage, whether it is protective camouflage or mimicking some non-edible critter, and so those who are least noticeable would have the highest probability of founding the next generations.
Is that at all reasonable?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 57 of 188 (347325)
09-07-2006 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by MartinV
09-07-2006 12:52 PM


Re: Heliconius
1) "Butterflies are the most conspicuous of insects...they are recognizable for what they are from further away than any other insects."
Well, no telling what was in the ellipsis, BUT, if true (and dragonflies might be equally is not even more recognizable), that simply supports the scenario I outlined.
2) "The fact is that butterflies are not at all easy to catch. They are erratic fliers whose aerial trajectory is all but linear."
Again, that simply supports the scenario I postulated. When laying eggs they are not moving.
3) "but as regards insectivorous birds as a whole, the evidence indicates that most simply don’t go after butterflies."
All it takes is one. I have personally watched Mockingbirds catch butterflies as well as Kiskadees.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 66 of 188 (347560)
09-08-2006 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by MartinV
09-08-2006 1:35 PM


Re: Heliconius
May you explain your proposition? Because to look conspicuous in these cases of Helioconus means, that unpalatable species (as this is the thread of Heliconius and therefore of Mullerian mimicry) "want" to look like another unpalatable aposematic species. Whats the point? Couldnot birds remember the original colour pattern of mimic as aposematic pattern too? They are unpalatable. Or taste birds occassionaly both of them - then I do not know, if the signal is aposematic, if it does not protect before tasting.
Please see Message 3 for a discussion of just that issue.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 107 of 188 (348491)
09-12-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Belfry
09-12-2006 5:46 PM


If you search for +fungus +evolution which will get pages that have both the terms the results are:
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,780,000 for +fungus +evolution. (0.16 seconds)
But that is simply yet another attempt to change the subject, to dance away from the thread topic.
I have yet to see any support for why mimicry would be a problem in anyway to the TOE.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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