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Author Topic:   Creationists:: What would convince you that evolution has happened ?
Peter
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 1 of 385 (5147)
02-20-2002 8:01 AM


Just a twist on the same question that runs through the
whole forum.
What would it take to convince you as a creationist, that evolution
has occurred ?
If your answer is nothing ... leave the debate, your not interested
in finding the truth only preaching your belief.
Any other input would be read with interest.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by joz, posted 02-20-2002 10:02 AM Peter has replied
 Message 7 by Godismyfather, posted 02-21-2002 6:47 PM Peter has replied
 Message 13 by Jet, posted 02-22-2002 12:41 AM Peter has replied
 Message 96 by Peter, posted 03-26-2002 11:04 AM Peter has not replied
 Message 122 by SAGREB, posted 06-23-2002 7:31 AM Peter has not replied
 Message 256 by William E. Harris, posted 07-13-2002 10:59 PM Peter has not replied

joz
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 385 (5152)
02-20-2002 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peter
02-20-2002 8:01 AM


To be fair Peter the question should also be turned on its head....
What evidence would convince us non-creationists that TC,JP,KP et al have it right......
A fossil of an allosaur eating a homo sapien a` la Onyate man?
The discovery of the remains of a massive 4,000 year old boat bigger than modern cruise liners?
All extant copies of Origin of the species spontaneously combusting and a loud voice proclaiming from the heavens "I MADE IT ALL!!!"?
Seems to me the criticism coming here to preach instead of debate is a double edged sword unless we define evidence that would convince us that their arguments are correct.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peter, posted 02-20-2002 8:01 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Peter, posted 02-20-2002 10:22 AM joz has replied
 Message 6 by toff, posted 02-21-2002 9:32 AM joz has not replied

Peter
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 3 of 385 (5154)
02-20-2002 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by joz
02-20-2002 10:02 AM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
To be fair Peter the question should also be turned on its head....
What evidence would convince us non-creationists that TC,JP,KP et al have it right......
A fossil of an allosaur eating a homo sapien a` la Onyate man?
The discovery of the remains of a massive 4,000 year old boat bigger than modern cruise liners?
All extant copies of Origin of the species spontaneously combusting and a loud voice proclaiming from the heavens "I MADE IT ALL!!!"?
Seems to me the criticism coming here to preach instead of debate is a double edged sword unless we define evidence that would convince us that their arguments are correct.....

I agree (re: preaching), but there are several threads where
one or more of the evolutionists have put forward groups of
evidences that WOULD convince us that evolution was wrong.
Proving that creation is correct would (for me) have to include::
For YEC::
Evidence of a 6000 year old earth.
'Out of place' remains in the fossil record.
Species thought to be part of an evolutionary hierarchy found to be
the same age.
Scientific explanation of how a flood could 'sort' remains.
In general::
Objective criteria for ID & match to living things.
Historical corroboration for the patriarchs of the old testament
(to serve as an indicator of Biblical accuracy).
My intent in starting this thread (as with the other threads
I have started) is to attempt to re-focus a meandering discussion
and to place the Creationist debaters in a position of defending
their claims, rather than attacking evolution.
I know that they DO have to defend their positions once some debate
is entered, but that starts to become a dance ... largely because
us sciencey types are really easy to divert with interesting and
controversial opinions.
I think that the question here IS a fair one.
Do you know any scientist who, when faced with sufficiently
credible evidence, will NOT change their mind ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by joz, posted 02-20-2002 10:02 AM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by joz, posted 02-20-2002 10:56 AM Peter has replied
 Message 148 by Martin J. Koszegi, posted 06-24-2002 7:20 PM Peter has replied
 Message 260 by William E. Harris, posted 07-15-2002 2:39 AM Peter has replied

joz
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 385 (5155)
02-20-2002 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Peter
02-20-2002 10:22 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
Do you know any scientist who, when faced with sufficiently credible evidence, will NOT change their mind ?
Nope....
In post 2 I was just pre-empting the expected creationist response of *well your argument applies to you as well*. Since the point has now been raised and answered anyone of the creationist persuasion who posts here need not mention it again......
Oh BTW are you familiar with Onyate man?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Peter, posted 02-20-2002 10:22 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Peter, posted 02-21-2002 8:00 AM joz has not replied

Peter
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 5 of 385 (5207)
02-21-2002 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by joz
02-20-2002 10:56 AM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
Nope....
In post 2 I was just pre-empting the expected creationist response of *well your argument applies to you as well*. Since the point has now been raised and answered anyone of the creationist persuasion who posts here need not mention it again......

Fair enough. I notice no creationist responses yet.
I seem to be having that effect on this forum ... dunno why!!!
quote:
Originally posted by joz:

Oh BTW are you familiar with Onyate man?

[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by joz, posted 02-20-2002 10:56 AM joz has not replied

toff
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 385 (5211)
02-21-2002 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by joz
02-20-2002 10:02 AM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
To be fair Peter the question should also be turned on its head....
What evidence would convince us non-creationists that TC,JP,KP et al have it right......

I'll jump in and answer this. I can think of nothing that would convince me that creationists were right, because I can think of nothing that would convince me of the existence of the Christian God.
I can, however, think of a great many things that would cause me to come to the conclusion that evolutionary theory was flawed, or incorrect, however. But, despite what creationists might like to think, evolutionary theory and creationism are not the only two alternatives. Certainly, if we discovered something that completely invalidated evolutionary theory, I would abandon my belief that it is correct; I would not become a creationist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by joz, posted 02-20-2002 10:02 AM joz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Godismyfather, posted 02-21-2002 6:50 PM toff has not replied
 Message 149 by Martin J. Koszegi, posted 06-24-2002 7:32 PM toff has not replied

Godismyfather
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 385 (5243)
02-21-2002 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peter
02-20-2002 8:01 AM


Nothing could convince me that evoulution happened. I'm just trying to save some people from suffering ETERNALLY with the most UNIMAGINABLE pain times 1 million in Hell.
------------------
God Bless,
Victoria

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peter, posted 02-20-2002 8:01 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by LudvanB, posted 02-21-2002 7:02 PM Godismyfather has not replied
 Message 10 by gene90, posted 02-21-2002 7:04 PM Godismyfather has not replied
 Message 11 by Peter, posted 02-21-2002 7:35 PM Godismyfather has not replied
 Message 12 by mark24, posted 02-21-2002 8:02 PM Godismyfather has replied

Godismyfather
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 385 (5244)
02-21-2002 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by toff
02-21-2002 9:32 AM


What do you believe in than?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by toff, posted 02-21-2002 9:32 AM toff has not replied

LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 385 (5247)
02-21-2002 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Godismyfather
02-21-2002 6:47 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Godismyfather:
Nothing could convince me that evoulution happened. I'm just trying to save some people from suffering ETERNALLY with the most UNIMAGINABLE pain times 1 million in Hell.

Excuse me but what are blabering on about there? Who's gonna suffer "ETERNALLY with the most UNIMAGINABLE pain times 1 million in Hell."? People who use the brains God gave them to realize that the biblical accounts of creation are just a bunch of recycled MYTHS from earlier mesopotamian cultures like the Sumerians?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Godismyfather, posted 02-21-2002 6:47 PM Godismyfather has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Martin J. Koszegi, posted 06-24-2002 7:47 PM LudvanB has not replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3848 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 10 of 385 (5248)
02-21-2002 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Godismyfather
02-21-2002 6:47 PM


[QUOTE][b]Nothing could convince me that evoulution happened.[/QUOTE]
[/b]
Do you realize that you are admitting that you would still stand by Creationism even if it were wrong? Further do you realize that
you have admitted that you are not at all interested with deciding if Creationism really happened, that you cling to the position that it did without question? Finally, do you agree that "Creation Science" is not science?
Your startling honesty is exactly what we want to hear. Thank you!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Godismyfather, posted 02-21-2002 6:47 PM Godismyfather has not replied

Peter
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 11 of 385 (5256)
02-21-2002 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Godismyfather
02-21-2002 6:47 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Godismyfather:
Nothing could convince me that evoulution happened. I'm just trying to save some people from suffering ETERNALLY with the most UNIMAGINABLE pain times 1 million in Hell.

In that case please read post one in this thread, and leave the
debate.
It would be a pretty petty God that would send someone to hell
for beleiving the evidence that He himself placed for us to find.
Speaking of hell ... I never did understand why the Devil punishes
sinners in hell ... I thought he was the enemy of God. Wouldn't
that make him pretty nice to sinners ? ... kindred spirits and all
that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Godismyfather, posted 02-21-2002 6:47 PM Godismyfather has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Jet, posted 02-22-2002 1:42 AM Peter has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5220 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 12 of 385 (5259)
02-21-2002 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Godismyfather
02-21-2002 6:47 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Godismyfather:
Nothing could convince me that evoulution happened. I'm just trying to save some people from suffering ETERNALLY with the most UNIMAGINABLE pain times 1 million in Hell.

Victoria,
If you have decided that evolution is wrong, & nothing would change your mind, why are you here?
If you want to enter into discussion, ask questions, make points, address issues, then fine. But what's going to happen is, you are going to be presented with posts that ask you to back up claims, or ask difficult questions. But if you are NOT prepared to address such issues, & are just going to assert "God is right, evolution is wrong", without giving explanations, then you're in the wrong place.
I've tried to get Christian 1 to back up his claims at least a half dozen times, to no avail. I'm wrong, he's right, & he doesn't feel the need to explain WHY he's right & I'm wrong. As you can imagine, it all gets a bit frustrating.
I'm not saying this is your style, but the "nothing could convince me that evoulution happened", had alarm bells ringing.
Take care,
Mark
ps Welcome
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
[This message has been edited by mark24, 02-21-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Godismyfather, posted 02-21-2002 6:47 PM Godismyfather has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Godismyfather, posted 02-23-2002 5:20 PM mark24 has replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 385 (5269)
02-22-2002 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peter
02-20-2002 8:01 AM


This is an interesting question, posed from either the evolutionists or creationists point of view. For myself, and assuming you are referring to macro-evolution, there would have to be a tremendous amount of undeniable proof. Not just evidence that could be used as a support for the ToE, but real, undeniable proof. This would not necessarily negate my belief in creation although it would require me to change my understanding of creation. I was surprised to find this thread because just today I was thinking to myself what it would take to convince some evolutionists that creation was correct and evolution was incorrect.
For many, I suppose nothing short of their death, with them finding themselves standing before the God they have rejected, with God proclaiming to them that He and He alone created all things and did so by His Word, by His speaking all things into existance, nothing short of that may be required to convince many evolutionists. Now, what would it take for most creationists to accept evolution? Well, no doubt there are some that would not accept it regardless of the amount of evidence or even the presentation of solid and undeniable proof. Most, however, would be able to rationalize it and still allow it to fit within the concept of creation.
Already today there are those who accept that God did indeed create through the process of evolution. But for myself, it would have to be proof and not merely evidence. Evidence is a great tool but it has been known to lead educated men and women down a path of error and misunderstanding. Religious beliefs have also been known to lead educated men and women down a path of error and misunderstanding. When science and religion, and those who promote them, realize that they are not such strange bedfellows after all, the journey to real knowledge and ultimate truth will have taken a great leap forward. Truth is Undeniable, Unchangeable, and Immoveable. Knowledge must always take second place to truth. Even when it seems as though it must be right. Only then will real knowledge lead to the ultimate truth. And truth, once found, can never be denied.......it can only be rejected!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peter, posted 02-20-2002 8:01 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-22-2002 1:01 AM Jet has not replied
 Message 15 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-22-2002 1:10 AM Jet has not replied
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 Message 19 by Peter, posted 02-22-2002 5:38 AM Jet has replied
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 Message 49 by quicksink, posted 03-04-2002 5:00 AM Jet has not replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3945
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 14 of 385 (5270)
02-22-2002 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Jet
02-22-2002 12:41 AM


My compliments on the quality of jet's post. This string is actually showing signs of going an interesting and informative route.
I'll have to get back with some real commentary, after I think things over some.
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Jet, posted 02-22-2002 12:41 AM Jet has not replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3945
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 15 of 385 (5271)
02-22-2002 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Jet
02-22-2002 12:41 AM


quote:
proof and not merely evidence
The concept of proof in science has been beat on in many of the other topics. I am personally hoping to keep it out of this string.
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Jet, posted 02-22-2002 12:41 AM Jet has not replied

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