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Author Topic:   Is there really such a thing as a beneficial mutation?
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 18 of 223 (342970)
08-24-2006 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
08-24-2006 11:34 AM


Beneficial mutation
Your 'questioning' is an argument from incredulity.
Your counterproposal is aesthetic (elegance), not scientific (research).
I do get that mutations do happen that have a beneficial function
Progress.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 08-24-2006 11:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 08-24-2006 12:06 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 44 of 223 (343063)
08-24-2006 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by mjfloresta
08-24-2006 3:10 PM


Re: Clarification of creation theory requested
mjfloresta has introduced a new hypothesis: the Body Plan hypothesis. This deserves a closer look.
According to the hypothesis, species can evolve within a given 'body plan' but will not evolve from one 'body plan' to another. No mutations that science has observed to date validate the theory of evolution because none have changed the 'body plan' of a species.
This is close to becoming a real proposal that can be validated or falsified scientifically. All mjfloresta has to do is define body plan in a way that may be objectively measured.
Let's put the question into focus with an example.
A genetic mutation in our own species occurs when one person grows wisdom teeth and another does not. mjfloresta's argument is that this proves nothing about evolution because, wisdom teeth or no wisdom teeth, the human 'body plan' remains the same.
It follows, then, that whatever a 'body plan' is, the genes affecting these four teeth are not part of it.
How many teeth would have to change, then, before we can say the homo sapiens body plan has evolved? Six teeth? Eight teeth? All of them? Where's the boundary?

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by mjfloresta, posted 08-24-2006 3:10 PM mjfloresta has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Jazzns, posted 08-24-2006 5:36 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 52 of 223 (343075)
08-24-2006 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by mjfloresta
08-24-2006 5:41 PM


Re: the Body Plan hypothesis
mjfloresta writes:
So yeah, I know something about evolution. What else do I have to say?
The scientific definition of your term 'body plan.'
We're waiting.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by mjfloresta, posted 08-24-2006 5:41 PM mjfloresta has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 63 of 223 (343094)
08-24-2006 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by mjfloresta
08-24-2006 5:54 PM


Re: MJ's Body Plan hypothesis
mjfloresta writes:
I think it's difficult to establish this Metric without going into deeply into the genetics..
Don't be shy. We've got specialists here who can follow you, even if all of us can't.
Do what you must to put forward a testable hypothesis.
If I define the increase in information or complexity as being that information which is neccessary to produce a different organ or body plan,
What is a 'body plan'?
then I concede there may be some ambiguity, in the absence of comparing the actual genetic makeup of the organs that some organism is supposed to acquire.
Do your best.
But, any ambiguity aside, is there any evidence of an organism acquiring a new organ derived from genetic information it did not previously posess?
No, let's not leave the ambiguity aside. This is important.
You have proposed an alternative hypothesis that would invalidate the theory of evolution. If validated, your findings could make and break careers worldwide.
Compared to your confident posts a few steps back, you sound suddenly reticent. Why? All we require is the information to understand your hypthesis properly. Now is your chance. Teach us.
You have been talking about body plans. You still haven't defined that term scientifically. What is a 'body plan'?
Your hypothesis requires that wisdom teeth not be considered part of the 'body plan' of homo sapiens. If those teeth are not part of the body plan, which teeth are? Any? What about jawbone shape? Is that part of the 'body plan' or not? How do you decide?
We're still waiting.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by mjfloresta, posted 08-24-2006 5:54 PM mjfloresta has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 66 of 223 (343099)
08-24-2006 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by mjfloresta
08-24-2006 6:23 PM


Re: MJ's Body Plan hypothesis
mjfloresta writes:
I said it was ambiguous not because there's no defintion, but rather because what comprises one body plan versus another is individualized to each body plan as detailed by tremendously complex genetic codes...
You use the word 'body plan' twice here. You still have not defined the term. Surely you know that this statement cannot be understood until you do.
Please give us the information. What is a 'body plan'?
After you supply that definition, please explain what you mean by a body plan being 'individualized.' What would be an example of an individualized body plan? How does it differ from an unindividualized body plan?

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by mjfloresta, posted 08-24-2006 6:23 PM mjfloresta has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Wounded King, posted 08-24-2006 6:49 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 72 of 223 (343105)
08-24-2006 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by mjfloresta
08-24-2006 6:17 PM


Re: MJ's Body Plan hypothesis
This post contained material that was ruled off-topic as I was writing it. I saw the notice after posting and modified the message accordingly.
Please excuse.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Off topic.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by mjfloresta, posted 08-24-2006 6:17 PM mjfloresta has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 75 of 223 (343115)
08-24-2006 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Jazzns
08-24-2006 7:06 PM


Re: Trying to steer the past sub-thread back on topic
Jazzns writes:
My reasoning is simply that it seems that good examples of beneficial mutations are being overlooked for this pie-in-the-sky expectation of lizard evolving before our eyes. All that is needed to refute the original claim that there is no novel beneficial mutations is to simply show an example of a novel beneficial mutation. There is no requirment that this mutation cause an eye to grow in order for it to be considered beneficial. This false requirement is a distraction technique used by creationists to ignore the very good examples of beneficial mutations that have been presented.
I agree. Personally, I think the evolution of nylonase in bacteria is example enough. Fascinating story.
What creationists really owe everyone is a testable explanation of why incremental genetic mutations would not accumulate over time. As things stand there is every reason to think they will, and do.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Jazzns, posted 08-24-2006 7:06 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 81 of 223 (343127)
08-24-2006 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
08-24-2006 7:18 PM


Re: Trying to steer the past sub-thread back on topic
Faith writes:
I hope we can drop this particular line of thought for now
I can see why you'd want to.
and just focus down on the particulars of the claims about what a beneficial mutation is}
But you don't care, Faith. When you say you 'question' something you mean only that you reject it. The word 'question' is a euphemism you've picked up. It's a cosmetic touch that helps you sound, at first glance, more open to new ideas than you are.
Your purpose in this thread is to demand that people cite examples so you can reject them. You're not really curious. Your latest post states as much. You couldn't care less what science has to say about anything.
No, what you mean is not what EVOLUTION says is possible but what SCIENCE says is possible. And I for one am responding to that when I question that what science says is possible [....]
Yeah, well, whatever.
Boring.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 08-24-2006 7:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 08-24-2006 8:34 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 140 of 223 (343308)
08-25-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by nator
08-24-2006 8:00 PM


Gene CCR5
schrafinator asked Faith:
What is your opinion of the known mutation in gene CCR5 which confers either partial or total immunity to the HIV virus?
I missed Faith's comment about this. I'm still reading, though.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by nator, posted 08-24-2006 8:00 PM nator has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 145 of 223 (343317)
08-25-2006 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
08-25-2006 1:13 AM


Faith writes:
You are determined to tar me as stupid. What's the thrill? Give it up. The whole lot of you.
No one called you that.
Interesting that you would take this attitude just as Aegist supplied a succinct list of beneficial mutations to discuss, with links:
Evolution of Nylonase from frameshift mutation: http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm
Evolution of 7 step pathway to degrade TNT in a bacteria
CCR5, Sickle Cell anemia.
Myostatin mutation: Home - ultimate-exercise dieta saludable para todos los días
Instead of throwing around a lot of self-pity, tell us what you make of these examples. You did request them.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 08-25-2006 1:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 08-25-2006 5:49 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 149 of 223 (343324)
08-25-2006 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ramoss
08-25-2006 10:12 AM


Re: Beneficial mutation
ramoss writes:
The fossil evidence shows that the ear developed from the jaw bone of a dinosaur.
Here is a bit more information.
Morphological Intermediates
I'm glad you mentioned this. That's a fascinating line of evolution! More transitional creatures than you can shake a stick at. And every stage of the way shows full anatomical function.
These weren't dinosaurs, strictly speaking. You're talking about the ancestors of mammals, which would be pelycosaurs, therapsids, and the like.
What's interesting is that jawbones were always a means of sensing vibrations. But as evolving leg shapes lifted the animals bodies higher off the ground, the bones shifted to make them more efficient at the task of sensing vibrations while maintaining their function for eating. Hence--the inner ear!
Edited by Admin, : Shorten link.

Archer

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 Message 123 by ramoss, posted 08-25-2006 10:12 AM ramoss has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 166 of 223 (343393)
08-25-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
08-25-2006 5:33 PM


Re: No such list
Faith,
You've been given specific examples of beneficial mutations as you requested. Please address them.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 08-25-2006 5:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 08-25-2006 6:02 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 169 of 223 (343397)
08-25-2006 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
08-25-2006 5:49 PM


Data still being ignored by Faith
Here's that short list of beneficial mutations again:
Evolution of Nylonase from frameshift mutation: http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm
Evolution of 7 step pathway to degrade TNT in a bacteria
CCR5, Sickle Cell anemia.
Myostatin mutation: Home - ultimate-exercise dieta saludable para todos los días
Plus the mutation of Gene CCR5 linked to HIV resistance, which you promised to consider.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Clarity.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 08-25-2006 5:49 PM Faith has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 176 of 223 (343405)
08-25-2006 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
08-25-2006 6:02 PM


Re: Beneficial mutations ignored by Faith
Faith writes:
I'm sorry. This thread is too far gone for any serious business any more.
You declare yourself the loser of the very game you wanted play.
Very well. I can see how you'd feel demoralized, with everyone running up the score on you and all. Enjoy your sulk.
Looks like it's Miller Time.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 08-25-2006 6:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
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