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Author Topic:   Humans of the future?
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 31 of 82 (124110)
07-12-2004 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Steen
07-12-2004 7:25 PM


And no doubt, you would love for your bike to have babies, sing lullabies and whatnot. Any particular reason why you push the dishonest comparison with an inanimate object here?
Because a motorbike is a design - so is a racecar. So then, those points prove my ones. Obviously MY premise is that we are designed. Can you consider that when ranting about your own worldview?
I see your red herring of diversion for what it truly is, an inability to justify human illness if we supposedly are designed by God as the ultimate biological entity.
Well, it's only your premise that we are the ultimate biological entity, and therefore, a strawman of my position, as if you had read properly you would see that I wrote that he foresaw our downfall. And therefore we are only made for a race period.
As for human illness, it is quite easily explained in Genesis that the ground would be "cursed". Also, Adam lived for nearly a thousand years, therefore that would also fit the degenerative picture.
Given that medical science has doubled our lifespan,
What??? Obviously you have never read Genesis. Now just what are your excuses for assuming that I would incorporate YOUR worldly mindset?
Given the rampant heart disease in modern society and the more rampant need for blood pressure medications,
Which is caused by what? Please don't tell me that you expect me to believe that it is the human body at fault here. So that's another none-answer to my brilliant post.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 07-12-2004 07:37 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Steen, posted 07-12-2004 7:25 PM Steen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 07-12-2004 8:53 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 41 by Steen, posted 07-22-2004 9:57 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 60 by lfen, posted 10-20-2004 1:24 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 82 (124112)
07-12-2004 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by mike the wiz
07-12-2004 8:35 PM


As for human illness, it is quite easily explained in Genesis that the ground would be "cursed".
Now how do you get from that to illness?
Also, Adam lived for nearly a thousand years, therefore that would also fit the degenerative picture.
Are you sure that you really want to bring in the short lived Judaic Patriarchs like Adam and Methuselah? After all, they were so degenerated compared to those in the Gilgamish tales. The Sumerian models lasted many orders of magnitude longer than the Old Testament models.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by mike the wiz, posted 07-12-2004 8:35 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by mike the wiz, posted 07-12-2004 8:59 PM jar has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 33 of 82 (124113)
07-12-2004 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
07-12-2004 8:53 PM


And thorns "began to grow".
Only a fool would think that we get ill, therefore illness is meant for us from God. Isn't it clear from the scriptures, that Christ cast out illness? Are you saying that God gives us illness Jar?
Are you saying that he made us to get ill? Tis simply a wrongful way of thinking is all. Nothing major.
Illness is what we have in a fallen world. This is all made clear in the scriptures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 07-12-2004 8:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 07-12-2004 9:30 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 42 by Steen, posted 07-22-2004 10:00 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 82 (124116)
07-12-2004 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by mike the wiz
07-12-2004 8:59 PM


Are you saying that God gives us illness Jar?
Of course not. There is nothing about sickness or injury that has anything to do with religion. We get sick because there are other critters that live off us, because we are a cobbled together product of Evolution.
Are you saying that he made us to get ill?
'Course not. He didn't make us. We evolved.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by mike the wiz, posted 07-12-2004 8:59 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by mike the wiz, posted 07-12-2004 10:15 PM jar has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 35 of 82 (124122)
07-12-2004 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
07-12-2004 9:30 PM


He could have still designed us though - even if we did evolve. Because we are made in the image of God. If you think we are not, why did he come as a man, yet was before man?
Therefore, you would have him come as a dolphin Jar. And yes - you are a critter!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 07-12-2004 9:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 07-12-2004 10:22 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 82 (124125)
07-12-2004 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by mike the wiz
07-12-2004 10:15 PM


Because we are made in the image of God.
Frankly, I've always seen that has about the biggest nonsense, well, close to the biggest nonsense in the Bible. I can't imagine that God has no padding on his shins or funny bone, or bad eyes, or a coccyx. I bet he'd have a real tail.
As to Jesus' form, do we know that he did not come as a dolphin to the dolphins?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by mike the wiz, posted 07-12-2004 10:15 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by mike the wiz, posted 07-12-2004 10:28 PM jar has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 37 of 82 (124130)
07-12-2004 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
07-12-2004 10:22 PM


It may seem like nonsense to you Mr Jar, but it kinda makes sense actually. If you automatically think, "how egotistical" - then you have missed what I meant.
You see, if the Word was with God and was God, then couldn't we have been made IN God's image? That then cancels out the egotism aspect, because obviously we would not be the first to have this image.
If God walked in the garden, and Moses seen his backward parts, is not I am before men?
Do Angels suffer from bodily problems? Do you really limit God so easily?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 07-12-2004 10:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 07-12-2004 10:47 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 82 (124133)
07-12-2004 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by mike the wiz
07-12-2004 10:28 PM


I really think that you have misunderstood me. In fact I know that you have.
Do you really limit God so easily?
I do not limit God at all.
I don't dismiss the idea of "Made in His Image" based on ego. I base it on the visible evidence. We are so poorly made that it's silly to think we are made in the image of GOD.
Do Angels suffer from bodily problems?
We'll, other than the fact that has absolutely nothing to do with anything, it's about as intersting a pinhead dancing.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by mike the wiz, posted 07-12-2004 10:28 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by arachnophilia, posted 07-13-2004 12:20 AM jar has not replied

  
biochem_geek
Inactive Junior Member


Message 39 of 82 (124137)
07-12-2004 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by tubi417
06-26-2004 11:49 PM


linkage
Hate to interject in a conversation about dolphin jesus coming, as dolphin to spread The Word to dolphin kind but.
This Panda's thumb artcle about the recent/future evolution on man may be of interest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tubi417, posted 06-26-2004 11:49 PM tubi417 has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 40 of 82 (124154)
07-13-2004 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
07-12-2004 10:47 PM


I don't dismiss the idea of "Made in His Image" based on ego. I base it on the visible evidence. We are so poorly made that it's silly to think we are made in the image of GOD.
theologically, i believe evolution is the process by which we are made into the image of god. i do not think we are there yet.
there's an interesting symbolic reading of genesis, which i doubt anyone here has heard which states that adam is the model for all man, and the days of creation are intended to represent periods of earth's history on some kind of logarithmic scale. in this symbolistic view, we'd still be in the morning of day six, being created. day seven would be the end of time, when god can rest.
not exactly a literal reading, as it of course doesn't fit with gen 3 on, but it's an interesting way to look at the story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 07-12-2004 10:47 PM jar has not replied

  
Steen
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 82 (126782)
07-22-2004 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by mike the wiz
07-12-2004 8:35 PM


quote:
Well, it's only your premise that we are the ultimate biological entity,
Rather, that is the assertion of the Bible and of Creationists.
MY premise is that we have evolved and are just one of the many species who are adapting to our environment, each along our own niche of specialization.
quote:
as if you had read properly you would see that I wrote that he foresaw our downfall. And therefore we are only made for a race period.
Please point to the evidence of this "downfall" that you claim exists. Certainly, we do continue to IMPROVE through evolution, so that claim ALSO doesn't make a lick of sense.
quote:
As for human illness, it is quite easily explained in Genesis that the ground would be "cursed".
Ah, so we should ALL be living on cursed ground, of course. Now, if you claim that is equivalent to having illnesses, then that (1) is a major, unsubstantiated stretch, and directly contradicted by Jesus actually curing people (Guess you are claiming that part of the Bible to be a lie, then?). And (2) we should ALL be sick, which is not the claim. As such THAT line of reasoning ALSO is pure nonsense.
quote:
Also, Adam lived for nearly a thousand years, therefore that would also fit the degenerative picture.
Really? So you insist that the Bible is literal in that, but not in other things? Amazing this picking and choosing what is right and what is wrong in the Bible. Presumably you have a system for determining this? Or is it the simple system of the Bible being right when agreeing with you, and wrong when it doesn't? I hope not, as such narcissistic misuse of the Bible would be the height of blasphemy.
And even if that is not the case, it also doesn't match reality, as human lifespan has doubled over the last century. Are we now LESS cursed suddenly? Or did God change impression of humans, finding us more obedient and adherent to Christian dogma now and thus worthy of less curse?
quote:
quote:
Given that medical science has doubled our lifespan,
What??? Obviously you have never read Genesis. Now just what are your excuses for assuming that I would incorporate YOUR worldly mindset?
Ah, the worldly mindset of claiming that humans live twice as long as we did a century ago? Hmm, so now that also is a lie, this directly observable FACT, merely because it contradicts your dogma? That really is a very lame argument you are making.
quote:
quote:
Given the rampant heart disease in modern society and the more rampant need for blood pressure medications,
Which is caused by what? Please don't tell me that you expect me to believe that it is the human body at fault here. So that's another none-answer to my brilliant post.
You ARE kidding, I hope? It very much IS the human body's frailty that causes our deaths, which if designed would be a sign of poor design. And also of inconsistent design, as some people NEVER get heart disease. Guess they never were cursed, then?
That aside, certainly, poor functioning of the human body causes our early death, while sanitation and public health efforts have caused a substantial increase in life-span. So frankly, your argument is pure nonsense, ALL of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by mike the wiz, posted 07-12-2004 8:35 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by mike the wiz, posted 07-22-2004 10:26 PM Steen has replied

  
Steen
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 82 (126784)
07-22-2004 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by mike the wiz
07-12-2004 8:59 PM


quote:
And thorns "began to grow".
Only a fool would think that we get ill, therefore illness is meant for us from God. Isn't it clear from the scriptures, that Christ cast out illness? Are you saying that God gives us illness Jar?
What a load of dishonest double-speak. YOU are the one making the claim of the "cursed" Earth causing illnesses. And YOU are the one claiming that God created the Earth just like that. So you ARE claiming that God caused our illness, a claim you now try to deny.
That's not just dishonest nonsense, the bearing of False Witness, but is also stark cowardice. You are beginning to disgust me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by mike the wiz, posted 07-12-2004 8:59 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 43 of 82 (126787)
07-22-2004 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Steen
07-22-2004 9:57 PM


Ah, so we should ALL be living on cursed ground, of course. Now, if you claim that is equivalent to having illnesses, then that (1) is a major, unsubstantiated stretch, and directly contradicted by Jesus actually curing people (Guess you are claiming that part of the Bible to be a lie, then?). And (2) we should ALL be sick, which is not the claim. As such THAT line of reasoning ALSO is pure nonsense.
Infact, people DO all get sick - at one time or another. Not that I even suggested that we would all be sick in the first place. Hypocrits said to Christ "we are not sick" therefore, Christ said, "yet your sin remains".
If anything, Jesus curing people - proves my point. Which is that we brought sin upon ourselves. The curse is obviously the beginning, or the catalyst. Paving the way for satan's work. Christ cast out satan - you really ought to read a few sentences of the bible.
Therefore, disease is if anything, from satan, as I in no way said that the curse is the be all and end all to this situation.
So I will at most say that my "curse" comment was insufficient, but still relevant.
Really? So you insist that the Bible is literal in that, but not in other things? Amazing this picking and choosing what is right and what is wrong in the Bible. Presumably you have a system for determining this? Or is it the simple system of the Bible being right when agreeing with you, and wrong when it doesn't?
Well, who says I take it literally? Some things we are forced to take literally, and in other things we cannot be sure. But then, I never claimed that I pick and choose, therefore you're strawmanning is boring me.
And even if that is not the case, it also doesn't match reality, as human lifespan has doubled over the last century.
Yet Adam lived for nearly a thousand years. Oh, am I taking it literally. ROFLMAO
You ARE kidding, I hope? It very much IS the human body's frailty that causes our deaths, which if designed would be a sign of poor design.
Wow, is that your evidence for heart disease being the body's fault.
And also of inconsistent design, as some people NEVER get heart disease. Guess they never were cursed, then?
The ground being cursed paves the way for disease etc..It in no way has anything to do with any accuracy, unless satan is intending it.
That aside, certainly, poor functioning of the human body causes our early death, while sanitation and public health efforts have caused a substantial increase in life-span. So frankly, your argument is pure nonsense, ALL of it.
Ahahahaha.... 1000 years to under a hundred, is that an increase?
ROFLMAO
The fact is, that "design" isn't poor, as we are not meant to live forever on the earth. Diseases will kill the body, and thereafter can do no more harm. Even God said from dust you came, and unto dust shall you return. Yet I fail to see how you have shown any poor design, and if you can create a human from nothing, then I'm sure willing to watch the news whn it tells us of your design that is as good as Gods.
Warning; WE haven't even been able to make anything that comes close to a human in design.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 07-22-2004 09:32 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Steen, posted 07-22-2004 9:57 PM Steen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Steen, posted 07-23-2004 12:06 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Steen
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 82 (126817)
07-23-2004 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by mike the wiz
07-22-2004 10:26 PM


quote:
quote:
That aside, certainly, poor functioning of the human body causes our early death, while sanitation and public health efforts have caused a substantial increase in life-span. So frankly, your argument is pure nonsense, ALL of it.
Ahahahaha.... 1000 years to under a hundred, is that an increase?
ROFLMAO
Yes, you persist in your LIES, you scoundrel, you bearer of false witness, you dishonest, sorry excuse for a Christian. I pointed out that one century ago, lifespan was half of now. THAT has changed, or are you going to claim that sin is only half as bad now as one century ago?>
Nope, that's not what you are saying, instead trying desperately and pathetically to deflect from the REALITY of recent increases in lifespan. As such, your dishonesty disgusts me even more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by mike the wiz, posted 07-22-2004 10:26 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-23-2004 12:50 AM Steen has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 45 of 82 (126830)
07-23-2004 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Steen
07-23-2004 12:06 AM


Yes, you persist in your LIES, you scoundrel, you bearer of false witness, you dishonest, sorry excuse for a Christian. I pointed out that one century ago, lifespan was half of now. THAT has changed, or are you going to claim that sin is only half as bad now as one century ago?
Our lifespan has increased in recent times due to unnatural causes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Steen, posted 07-23-2004 12:06 AM Steen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by contracycle, posted 07-23-2004 5:18 AM Hangdawg13 has replied
 Message 50 by Steen, posted 07-26-2004 1:59 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
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