Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Black Rednecks and White Liberals (by Thomas Sowell)
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 130 (376323)
01-11-2007 7:29 PM


I'm currently enraptured in a cultural and ethnic studies book given to me, named, "Black Rednecks and White Liberals." I've only read about 50 or so pages so far, but the author makes an attempt to bring down long held beliefs concerning ethnic relations and attempts to trace their roots or origins. What I've read so far is both well written and well informed.
Since I'm only 50 or so pages into it, I figured I would just quote the jacket and we can start a discussion on that.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added the "(by Thomas Sowell)" to the topic title.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Nighttrain, posted 01-13-2007 1:01 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 3 by Omnivorous, posted 01-13-2007 1:44 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 4 by Omnivorous, posted 01-13-2007 1:44 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 2 of 130 (376650)
01-13-2007 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
01-11-2007 7:29 PM


Tom Sowell
Many thanks, Jugs, for introducing me to Thomas Sowell. Living here on the fringe of space, we tend to miss better writers among the clutter sent to us in cargo container-loads at $1.50 a kilo. I`d never heard of him till I Googled for more info. His website looks promising. One section is a real gem. As a writer of sorts, I find myself in full agreement with Tom on the pitfalls of writing/publishing. Any scribblers here should try a sample:
Some Thoughts about Writing
P.S. I`ll look for the Rednecks book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-11-2007 7:29 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-13-2007 1:49 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 3 of 130 (376656)
01-13-2007 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
01-11-2007 7:29 PM


It's difficult to debate book jacket pufery, nj, but two things caught my eye.
It presents eye-opening insights into the historical development of the ghetto culture that is today wrongly seen as a unique black identity”a culture cheered on toward self-destruction by white liberals who consider themselves “friends” of blacks.
Curious. I don't know any liberals who see ghetto culture "as a unique black identity"--the folks I've met who see blacks as members of a ghetto culture have tended to be white conservatives. A great oral, written and artistic culture of resistance and survival has emerged from the ghettos in which black Americans were forced to live--surely Sowell means something else? If he is talking about gang and gangsta culture, which white liberals celebrate that? I mean, their little boys and girls might dance to it, but I don't think any adult liberal I've ever met "celebrates" it.
An essay titled “The Real History of Slavery” presents a jolting re-examination of that tragic institution and the narrow and distorted way it is too often seen today.
"Tragic institution" has an interesting ring: I've previously encountered southern evangelical apologists/revisionists eager to assure us that slavery is misrepresented as purely evil when it was actually a complex and sometimes loving relationsip that often benefited the slave. Perhaps you could tell us in what "narrow and distorted" ways Sowell thinks we see slavery today?
I have to admit that I'm prepared to be underwhelmed by anyone I've never heard of who is touted as America's leading public intellectual by a Fox News commentator. Tell me why I'm mistaken.

Drinking when we are not thirsty and making love at any time, madam, is all that distinguishes us from the other animals.
-Pierre De Beaumarchais (1732-1799)
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-11-2007 7:29 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-13-2007 2:24 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 4 of 130 (376657)
01-13-2007 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
01-11-2007 7:29 PM


double post
Edited by Omnivorous, : deletion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-11-2007 7:29 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 130 (376658)
01-13-2007 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Nighttrain
01-13-2007 1:01 AM


Re: Tom Sowell
Many thanks, Jugs, for introducing me to Thomas Sowell. Living here on the fringe of space, we tend to miss better writers among the clutter sent to us in cargo container-loads at $1.50 a kilo.
I would have thought that Brisbane is very contemporary.
I`d never heard of him till I Googled for more info.
I'd never heard of him either until about two weeks ago when a friend sent the book to my wife and I. Now we are arguing over who gets to read it first.
I lost that debate
His website looks promising. One section is a real gem. As a writer of sorts, I find myself in full agreement with Tom on the pitfalls of writing/publishing.
Yes, I agree. Thanks for posting that. His candor concerning his endeavors as a writer is especially pleasing since I too have attempted to write a book. I thought it was pretty decent for being my first shot at an actual book. But as I review it in plenary after the fact, I realize that the first editor that came across it would give it the ax.
So far, the first chapter has been devoted to tearing down old beliefs that have subtly become known as "fact" simply by sheer repetition. For instance, in this first chapter he goes over how black culture is anything but authentic, but rather, actually shows evidence of a highly dysfunctional white, southern redneck culture. And he doesn't stop there because the antebellum South borrowed its poor manners from across the pond in the Scottish highlands. He uses philology and mannerisms to trace it back to these roots.
He then attempts to uncover why such modes of speech and mannerisms seem to persist in Southern culture today. But more than that, Sowell claims that South is moving away from these attitudes, but not contemporary blacks who seem to not only condone such brash behavior, but also glorify it.
He then explains why this rationale is so highly favored amongst black communities in America. He makes a beeline straight toward white liberals who have coddled, praised, and perpetuated such ill-behavior. Sowell alleges that white liberals have placed all the blame on white society for all of the abject misery that has come upon the negro culture in America. He quickly dispels such a notion in a very thoughtful and insightful manner.
So far, this book is highly recommended, even if you or anyone else doesn't ascribe to his line of thinking.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Nighttrain, posted 01-13-2007 1:01 AM Nighttrain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 01-13-2007 2:11 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 6 of 130 (376661)
01-13-2007 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Hyroglyphx
01-13-2007 1:49 AM


Re: Tom Sowell
Regardless of his qualifications of a writer, I doubt very much that an argument that black people are poor because of hip-hop and collard greens instead of the institutionalized racism and array of economic disadvantages can be anything but fallacious.
Listening to rap doesn't make you poor. Wearing a do-rag and Timberland boots doesn't make you poor. Not being able to get a job because having a black-sounding name on your resume makes you half as likely to be called back for an interview as a guy with a white-sounding name and a felony conviction? That might tend to make you poor.
But, hey. Blaming the victim is a lot easier than solving the problem, isn't it?
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-13-2007 1:49 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-13-2007 2:58 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 130 (376663)
01-13-2007 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Omnivorous
01-13-2007 1:44 AM


I don't know any liberals who see ghetto culture "as a unique black identity"--the folks I've met who see blacks as members of a ghetto culture have tended to be white conservatives. A great oral, written and artistic culture of resistance and survival has emerged from the ghettos in which black Americans were forced to live--surely Sowell means something else? If he is talking about gang and gangsta culture, which white liberals celebrate that? I mean, their little boys and girls might dance to it, but I don't think any adult liberal I've ever met "celebrates" it.
Well, we certainly can't indict all liberals to support such a "gangsta" mentality. Indeed, not only is that not true of white liberals, but its not true of all blacks. He is making the indictment against a prevailing culture and whoever those constituents may be. I'll give you a for instance, however, of how liberals have tended to praise such affectations.
You may or may not have heard of Mumia Abu-Jamal. If not, I'll provide a brief synopsis. Mumia was arrested for the slaying off of a Philadelphia police officer named Danny Faulkner. Basically, Faulkner pulls of Mumia. Mumia shoots Faulkner in the face and chest according to eyewitness accounts. Mumia's attorneys naturally opted for the TODDI defense-- (the other dude did it). A mixed-raced jury deliberates against Mumia. Naturally, allegations of racism fly.
Now, we've all heard of death row inmates. What makes Mumia different is his activism where he dutifully paints the picture that he's some sort of political prisoner in order to illicit the sympathy of an all-too-willing liberal audience ready to take up arms in his defense-- evidence be damned. Along comes Ward Churchill, practically the poster child for frenzied liberal crusaders. The cry heard is of the vast rightwing conspiracy.
To put it this way, Churchill makes Michael Moore seem like little Lord Fauntleroy in application. In fact, Moore, speaking about Mumia, is quoted as saying, "He probably killed that guy. There, I said it." That, of course, doesn't overshadow his unwaivering support of Mumia because Mumia has so enshrined himself in the prgressive pantheon that his crime is virtually of no consequence to the Left. But anyway, Churchill denounced Moore publicly, by saying, "Michael Moore is a fraud. There, I said it."
The point is, there is this entire counter-culture who fight for people like Mumia Abu-Jamal or Tookie Williams simply because they are black. And somehow, they are just victims of the evil white conspiracy to oppress them. Therefore, in the strictest sense of the word, they are racists-- people who base their opinions of others based solely on race rather than the merits of any given person.
Thomas Sowell attempts to make this kind of connection-- not that I needed him to mark the dots for me. That is already apparent to me. What makes it all the better is that Sowell is very fair and impartial in his assessment. He just gives it to the reader very plainly and candidly, not afraid to ruffle the feathers of the P.C. police, who have already derided him as an "Uncle Tom."
And that's another thing. An Uncle Tom is a black person who thinks that social barbarism, lauded by the Left, is somehow untrue to their roots. But Sowell very clearly explains that these roots derive from white southerners-- hence the name of the book, "Black Rednecks and White Liberals." But interestingly, the Left tends to demonize white southerners for virtually the same type of social barbarism as their black, urban contemporaries. That's surely a contradiction in terms.
"Tragic institution" has an interesting ring: I've previously encountered southern evangelical apologists/revisionists eager to assure us that slavery is misrepresented as purely evil when it was actually a complex and sometimes loving relationsip that often benefited the slave. Perhaps you could tell us in what "narrow and distorted" ways Sowell thinks we see slavery today?
The truth is that slavery has been around as long as humans have been. And while American slavery, in many cases, epitomizes all the horrors of what slavery can bring about, the reality is the standardized belief portrayed in "Roots" was far from the norm.
I have to admit that I'm prepared to be underwhelmed by anyone I've never heard of who is touted as America's leading public intellectual by a Fox News commentator. Tell me why I'm mistaken.
Because you're a liberal?

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Omnivorous, posted 01-13-2007 1:44 AM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 01-13-2007 2:44 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 10 by Vacate, posted 01-13-2007 3:14 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 18 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-13-2007 2:12 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 19 by Omnivorous, posted 01-13-2007 2:15 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 8 of 130 (376665)
01-13-2007 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Hyroglyphx
01-13-2007 2:24 AM


I wonder if you've consciously misrepresented the facts of the case, or you simply don't know any better. Either way your cavalier treatment of the facts would seem to prove exactly the racism that you're denying.
quote:
In the early hours of December 9, 1981, around 3:51 AM, Philadelphia Police Department (PPD) officer Daniel Faulkner was shot and killed during an altercation that ensued from a routine traffic stop of a vehicle driven by William Cook, Abu-Jamal's younger brother...
Abu-Jamal himself did not give the police his version of the events initially. In fact he did not address the shooting at all until almost 20 years later when his third set of lawyers offered the affidavit of a man who claimed he had in fact shot Officer Faulkner as part of a Mafia hit connected with a desire to keep Faulkner from testifying against corrupt police...
There are discrepancies found in accounts of the number of witnesses and their statements to police after the shooting. This external link is a press release prepared by lawyers in defense of Mumia that says eye witness William Singletary informed the police that Mumia was not the shooter.
from Mumia Abu-Jamal - Wikipedia
Gosh, that seems like a long way from "he totally did it" and a little closer to "reasonable doubt." Especially the part where, according to police, Abu-Jamal confessed to police despite being completely unconscious from his gunshot wounds. I don't know anything about the case, but Abu-Jamal is certainly entitled to a vigorous defense and to the full excercise of his constitutional rights, wouldn't you agree?
But, hey, you know, I guess I'm just a "liberal". Honestly I don't care that Abu-Jamal is black, or that Sowell is black. But if accuracy, law, and justice get a little fuzzy every time somebody black is before the bench, that would seem to substantiate the very racism that Sowell is so adamant is just a white liberal invention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-13-2007 2:24 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-13-2007 3:22 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 130 (376668)
01-13-2007 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
01-13-2007 2:11 AM


Re: Tom Sowell
Regardless of his qualifications of a writer, I doubt very much that an argument that black people are poor because of hip-hop and collard greens instead of the institutionalized racism and array of economic disadvantages can be anything but fallacious.
He hasn't gone into economics. He's uncovering the social tendencies of the ghetto culture. Also, Thomas Sowell is himself a black man. So, he surely can't indict everyone and doesn't.
Listening to rap doesn't make you poor. Wearing a do-rag and Timberland boots doesn't make you poor.
Again, the focus isn't on being poor, though he does go over why people use that as a convenient scapegoat.
"White liberals in many roles-- as intellectuals, politicians, celebrities, judges, teachers-- have aided and abetted the perpetuation of a counterproductive and self-destructive lifestyle among black rednecks. The welfare state has made it economically possible to avoid many of the painful consequences of this lifestyle that forced previous generations of blacks and whites to move away from the redneck culture and its values...
Blaming others for anything in which blacks lag has become standard operating procedure among white liberals. If blacks do not pass bar exams or medical board tests as often as whites or Asians, then somehow that shows that something was wrong with the test itself, as far as many white liberals are concerned. Best-selling author, Andrew Hacker, for example, says that academic problems in general are created for black students in "white colleges" (whatever that is), because such curricula focuses on "white learning and logic, in their conceptions of scholarly knowledge and demeanor." Why this does not seem to be a problem for Asian students remains to be a mystery, even though blacks have lived in this white society centuries longer than either Asian Americans or contemporary immigrants from Asia who seem to excel."
-Thomas Sowell
Not being able to get a job because having a black-sounding name on your resume makes you half as likely to be called back for an interview as a guy with a white-sounding name and a felony conviction? That might tend to make you poor.
Name the companies who hire felons over black people with "black sounding names," otherwise, its a bare assertion and a convenient scapegoat.
But, hey. Blaming the victim is a lot easier than solving the problem, isn't it?
And therein lies the problem. You still believe that you are somehow indebted to the negro for slavery. I'm not. I wasn't there and neither were those who are claiming reparations for their ancestors. Here's the fact: Racism still exists. It will always exist. A novel idea would be to not base our beliefs about people over the color of their skin, but of the content of their character. By coddling those who claim just such a hardship, you are hindering them, not helping them. You are giving them no incentive with all hand-out's (based solely on their race, interestingly enough) than you would if you just gave everyone the same opportunity equally-- truly equally, not this superficial, politically correct, dog and pony show.
It seems to have worked just fine for an honorable man like Thomas Sowell.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 01-13-2007 2:11 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 01-13-2007 2:03 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4601 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 10 of 130 (376674)
01-13-2007 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Hyroglyphx
01-13-2007 2:24 AM


nemesis_juggernaut writes:
The point is, there is this entire counter-culture who fight for people like Mumia Abu-Jamal or Tookie Williams simply because they are black. And somehow, they are just victims of the evil white conspiracy to oppress them. Therefore, in the strictest sense of the word, they are racists-- people who base their opinions of others based solely on race rather than the merits of any given person.
Thomas Sowell attempts to make this kind of connection-- not that I needed him to mark the dots for me. That is already apparent to me. What makes it all the better is that Sowell is very fair and impartial in his assessment
I do need people to mark the dots for me as you say. So white leftists blame white rightists because blacks are poor and stupid? Does this about sum up his fair and impartial assessment?
ABE:" By coddling those who claim just such a hardship, you are hindering them, not helping them" - This however I very much agree with, but seems counter to what you have posted above such comments.
Edited by Vacate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-13-2007 2:24 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-13-2007 3:31 AM Vacate has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 130 (376675)
01-13-2007 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by crashfrog
01-13-2007 2:44 AM


Free Mumia !
I wonder if you've consciously misrepresented the facts of the case, or you simply don't know any better. Either way your cavalier treatment of the facts would seem to prove exactly the racism that you're denying.
In the legend on the lower lefthand corner is the number of eyewitness accounts that said Mumia was the trigger man, not his brother, nor anyone else. That's an awful lot of witnesses. And then of course, he was caught with smoking gun evidence-- literally.
But really, this thread isn't about Mumia. I just used him as a reference to how liberals run to the defense of the criminal and criminalize the police. Kind of like how you just did.
I don't know anything about the case, but Abu-Jamal is certainly entitled to a vigorous defense and to the full excercise of his constitutional rights, wouldn't you agree?
Was he not afforded an adequate defense? Was his trial unfair? Was he not convicted by a jury of his peers?
But, hey, you know, I guess I'm just a "liberal".
Eh, we all fall short. Some of us just fall further than others.
Honestly I don't care that Abu-Jamal is black, or that Sowell is black. But if accuracy, law, and justice get a little fuzzy every time somebody black is before the bench, that would seem to substantiate the very racism that Sowell is so adamant is just a white liberal invention.
What a ridiculous assertion. I wouldn't hesitate to assert that there were and are corrupt judges, but as you should know, judges don't decide cases, the People do. The only time activist judges can exercise sweeping authority is on the highest levels of court, such as the Supreme Court. Though in some cases they can ban crucial evidence if they feel that it paints the defendant in a negative light. But more than that, you are making a sweeping indictment against judges that they are mostly racist and would send a man unjustly to jail just because he's black. What a disparaging and unfounded comment. Though this is exactly the kind of behavior that typifies Sowell's argument.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typos

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 01-13-2007 2:44 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Vacate, posted 01-13-2007 3:35 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 15 by subbie, posted 01-13-2007 12:07 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 01-13-2007 1:53 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 130 (376683)
01-13-2007 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Vacate
01-13-2007 3:14 AM


Much ado about nothing
quote:
Thomas Sowell attempts to make this kind of connection-- not that I needed him to mark the dots for me. That is already apparent to me. What makes it all the better is that Sowell is very fair and impartial in his assessment
I do need people to mark the dots for me as you say. So white leftists blame white rightists because blacks are poor and stupid? Does this about sum up his fair and impartial assessment?
No. First of all, Sowell is black. Secondly, he routinely posits that blacks are in no way inferior intellectually than anyone else, something I firmly believe. Nor does he place the blame on economic status. He speaks about social ills that hinder many black American cultures today which directly affects their economic and academic levels, not the other way around which liberal assert.
" By coddling those who claim just such a hardship, you are hindering them, not helping them" - This however I very much agree with, but seems counter to what you have posted above such comments.
No, its right in line with what I said. I think you just misunderstood me.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Vacate, posted 01-13-2007 3:14 AM Vacate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Vacate, posted 01-13-2007 3:41 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4601 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 13 of 130 (376684)
01-13-2007 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Hyroglyphx
01-13-2007 3:22 AM


Re: Free Mumia !
I am not aware of the case, but I can relate to Crashfrogs scepticism.
Last week the local corner store was robbed in my city, at work I heard several people talking about it. (small city, we got nothing better to do I quess) The majority vote, as per usual, was that indians did it. Someone heard from someone.
Before the police caught the two master criminals (less than 50 in the till) I phoned the person working that night as I happen to know her. I asked about the robbery and if she recognized them - "I didnt see much, they had ski-masks"
The crooks may have been indians, who knows? The general feeling when things go bad in small town Canada is that indians did it. You may see it as a bad thing, but perhaps its good that there is a liberal group that fights for the underdog? Maybe that impartial jury has the same mentality as small town Canada?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-13-2007 3:22 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4601 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 14 of 130 (376686)
01-13-2007 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Hyroglyphx
01-13-2007 3:31 AM


Re: Much ado about nothing
I think you just misunderstood me
Perhaps I did. Your review of the book seems more be a critism of liberals than a deep look into black culture. I agree that hand holding is not going to fix the issues that blacks have in your country. The way you portrayed the book so far however seems not to be a discussion of these issues, but a critism of the people who are tying to improve the situation.
Biased jurors, biased employers etc are a reality - as they are in Canada.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-13-2007 3:31 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-14-2007 12:47 PM Vacate has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 15 of 130 (376711)
01-13-2007 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Hyroglyphx
01-13-2007 3:22 AM


Re: Free Mumia !
I wouldn't hesitate to assert that there were and are corrupt judges, but as you should know, judges don't decide cases, the People do.
This absolutely ludicrous statement can only be made by someone who knows nothing about how the criminal justice system actually works. Or a bald faced liar.
There are countless ways that a judge can control a trial to the point that the decision is taken out of the hands of the jury, either literally by dismissing a case at the close of the state's evidence, or virtually, by hamstringing the prosecution, or defense, to the point that there's only one way a jury can possibly decide it.
Most cases never reach trial. A judge can tremendously influence pretrial negotiations with pretrial rulings and pressure during pretrial conferences. Of the cases that go to trial, most never reach an intermediate court of appeals. Of the cases that reach an intermediate court of appeals, most of them are not even appealed to a state supreme court. The percentage of state criminal prosecutions that even apply for cert. to the U.S. Supreme Court is miniscule. And then, only a small fraction of a percentage that apply for cert. are heard. Of all cases that are appealed, the vast majority affirm the trial court decision.
On appeal, rulings by the trial court judge are given great deference. The appellant bears the heavy burden of establishing that the trial court judge abused the very wide discretion that he has at the trial level.
In short, if I were inclined to corruption and wanted to use the court system to promote my personal goals, the best place to do that is at the trial court level. Decisions by the Supremes usually have effects much wider than individual decisions by trial court judges, but this is overshadowed by the vastly wider opportunity that trial court judges have to influence more cases. And in virtually every case, there's something that a trial court judge can do to guarantee that one side or the other will win.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-13-2007 3:22 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-14-2007 12:59 PM subbie has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024