Dinosaurs and man lived together, which destroys the theory of evolution

I think I've done this before... There are plenty of dinosaurs that are known to be feathered.
Off the top of my head:Sinosauropteryx
Archaeopteryx
Sinornithosaurus
Shuvuuia
Rahonavis
Microraptor
Cryptovolans
Omnivoropteryx
Caudipteryx
Protarchaeopteryx
Dilongia
Psittacosaurus
Scansoriopteryx
Epidendrosaurus
Beipiaosaurus
"Dave"Keep in mind that these are just the ones of the top of my head.
Also keep in mind that I don't have the best memory.
Lastly, keep in mind that I've looked for information about the latest dinosaur finds only about 3 or 4 times in the past years. And at the curret rate of discovery of about one species per week, that's a lot of information that I've missed.

---

Proudly attempting to Google-Bomb Kent "The Idiot" Hovind's website

​

Idiot

i seriously doubt that's off the top of your head. that's fairly inclusive list, actually.frankly, i'm amazed we know of that many considering how rare it is for soft features like feathers to fossilize. do we even have that many examples of regular dinosaur skin? (and is it possible that a majority of dinos actually sported feathers towards the late cretacious?)

he may not, but i do. some dinosaurs did, in fact, migrate. we know that certain ceratopsians did. i saw that one! that was a fun show! and boy, it sure did sound like a giant scary bird.

Arach, how many of these feathered creatures have been positively confirmed to be, in fact birds and not dinos? And how many of these have fossils with actual fossilized feathers in/on the fossil?

Buzsaw, So a snail is the closest relative of a bird if it is the same size?I am more closely related to someone on the other side of the world because I weigh the same as them, & not my brother because he's a stone lighter?Regardless, you made the point that both dino and reptile generally larger than birds, & I pointed out that most reptiles are smaller than the largest birds, rendering your homology moot. In which case therapods have 2 legs & 2 arms, & not four legs as you claim, do you have four legs? You said, "Both dino and reptile have four legs. Bird two legs, 2 wings". The comparison/homology is therefore invalid. Point moot. As has been pointed out by others, most birds spend relatively little time in the air, making them primarily terrestrial.Moreover, you said, "Both dino and reptile land creatures. Bird generally flying creature". So what? you can't show relationships with differences, only homologies. That's like saying bats aren't mammals because they fly & cows don't. Taking Caudipteryx as a more detailed example:Caudipteryx possesses 22 caudal vertebrae (a la any therapod), a stiff distal portion of caudal vertebrae, again like a bipedal therapod. The distal caudal vertebrae are short as in therapods, as opposed to elongate as in Archaeopteryx & other Aves.A quadratojugal sutured to the quadrate. The dorsal squamosal process is long. Birds, even basal ones like Archy & Confuciornis have small quadratojugals, Caudipteryx has a long one consistent with it being a therapodan. The obdurator process of the ischium is large & triangular "exactly" like other oviraptor/dromaeosaurid therapods. The jugal is a typically nonavian therapodan jugal with a very large postorbital process.Deep mandibular fenestra, evidenced by the deep caudal embayment of the dentary of the paratype skull. As a point of order, the absence of a mandibular fenestra characterises aves vis-a-vis therapods. The mandibular fenestra of Caudipteryx is again highly comparable to dromaeosaurids & oviraptosaurs.The thoracic girdle possesses none of the avian apomorphies. The coracoid is more or less that of a conventional coelosaur coracoid, with a quadrilateral shape, proximal supracoracoidal nerve foramen, & moderate biceps tubercle. The thoracic girdle is located on the lateral aspect of the thorax with the scapula at an angle to the axial column rather than on the dorsal aspect of the thorax with the scapula parallel to the column. The latter condition is observed in all birds. The former in coelosaurs et al.The ilium is very tall directly above the acetabulum, & its preacetabular portion is not expanded cranially; the typical condition for most nonavian coelosaurs.This is why Caudipteryx is cladistically classified as an oviraptorsaurian (Zhou & Wang 2000), & not placed in the Aviala clade, much less Aves.(Mesozoic Birds. Luis M. Chiappe, & Lawrence M Whitmer)These issues were raised partially in response to Feduccia's claims. Although Feduccia does point to some genuine homologies, cladistic analyses show these to be plesiomorphies, a bit like birds & bats possession of wings not being indicative of common descent. The conventionally accepted conclusion is that Caudipteryx falls easily into the therapodan clade, the reason is that objective cladistic tests that account for all relevant morphological characters place them there. Feduccia, like yourself are more interested in plucking a few characters that support your position at the expense of the majority that contradict you.Making an easier to understand case, Caudipteryx dromaeosar/oviraptosaurid apomorphies, & lacks Aves apomorphies, ergo it is a dromaeosar/oviraptosaurid, not an avian. A point curiously ignored by Feduccia.Nonavian dinosaurs have feathers, rendering your point 5 moot. Irrelevant. You said, "both dino and reptile mouth and teeth unlike beaked bird". Since some birds have teeth, & some reptiles have beaks, you don't have a pure apomorphy. Your "imo" is neither here nor there. Since some large animals do migrate, you need positive evidence that dinosaurs didn't. No evidence = moot point. Whatever you say, Buz, but for the purposes of this thread, point 8 is moot. I am not interested in your "creator may have" stories, I am directly countering your claim that reptiles & birds legs are more similar to each other than birds/dinosaurs. This is an absolutely false claim for the reasons already given.MarkThis message has been edited by mark24, 10-24-2004 11:03 AM

---

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

None of them have been positively confirmed to be birds and not dinosaurs. Shuvuuia may be a bird, and it still is generally thought that Archaeopteryx is a bird, although there is more and more evidence that it is not a bird.All of them but Rahonavis have preserved feathers, but Rahonavis has rather obvious attachment points for feathers on its arm bone. The humerus, I think. It might be one of the other two. [i]Shuvuuia[i]'s feathers are difficult to make out, but were conclusively shown to be feathers when an analysis of the chemical structure of the fossilized proteins revealed them to be a specific protein (the name of which I can't remember. Beta-keratin or something.) that is only found in feathers.

---

Proudly attempting to Google-Bomb Kent "The Idiot" Hovind's website

​

Idiot

It is off the top of my head. You can tell because I spelled Dilong incorrectly.The only reason we know of so many is because of a volcanic eruption in China about 100 or so mya. Out of all the dinosaurs I listed, only 3 were found outside of the Yixian. (And if you want to be picky, Rahonavis was not found with preserved feathers, only with attachment points for the feathers.)We have several preserved examples of dinosaur skin, including ones from a hadrosaur, Carnotaurus, Aucasaurus (I think.), a titanosaurid, and Tyrannosaurus rex.We also have several instances of preserved soft tissues that aren't feathers. Muscles in Pelecanomimus, a four-chambered heart in Thescelosaurus, intestines in Scipionyx, and a layer of subdermal (I think that's the word.) fat in Psittacosaurus. (The same one that had the quill-like structures on its tail that are most likely feathers of some kind.)On an aside, we also have preserved integument from pterosaurs, which, along with dinosaurs, make up the clade Ornithodira. Specifically, we find this in Sordes. Due to the relationship between dinosaurs and pterosaurs, it would make more sense that this integument is somehow related to feathers, as it is more likely for a feature to evolve once in two closely related groups that it is to evolve once per group.

---

Proudly attempting to Google-Bomb Kent "The Idiot" Hovind's website

​

Idiot

How many then, have been positively cornirmed to be dino and positively not birds?

Buz, what a lot of these critters are, are transitionals, the steps between dinosaur and bird, missing links. Yet more support for both Evolution and the TOE.edited to add:The designation of Dinosaur or Bird can get pretty hard. They are, afterall, arbitrary. If they are more bird-like than dinosaur-like we may call them bird. But it is not an absolute, as we learn more, find more examples, more observations, the assignments may well sift.We're dealing with both what is there and with our own arbitratry nomenclature. We we look at examples of critters from millions of years ago, billions of years ago, and tried to make them fit neatly into our pigeonholes, it often is simply a choice which hole we put them in.This message has been edited by jar, 10-24-2004 09:14 PM

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

LOL. It would be if it had enough other similarities (as I believe crock has) to qualify to be. You people are forgetting, it appears that my hypothesis factors in a substantial renovation of the physiology of the Edenic serpent accordig to the Genesis text. A few reptiles are larger than any bird. Not a big deal, but, imo, has some significance. Do their arms have hands or do they have feet similar to their hind feet? What did they use these front limbs for? By the same token my point is that they do spend some time flying. As I've already posted, many species have their flukes. As I've already posted, many species have their flukes. My point has been that since it's a given my hypothesis would have the post-cursed offspring a different physiological reptile, there will be significant adjustments The debate boils down to whether bird or reptile would best explain the evidence for the Edenic serpent with legs to have existed. After all, this bird/dino debate started from that premise in my hypothesis. For my hypothesis to have credibility, and for Genesis record to have credibility, after all, we must, like you evos, come up with some evidence for what we believe. I believe dino's fossils is my evidence for Edenic serpent. I also believe my hypothesis is the best answer for the fact that all dinos disappeared and what happened to them. You people may disagree and thats your perrogative. This's my perrogative.

What I've read about that explanation seems to be that these critters are not old enough to be dino/bird transitionals.

Well, they range from around 120 Million years ago to about 200 Million years ago. That seems back a ways.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

All of them but Archaeopteryx and Shuvuuia. But like jar said, the line between dinosaurs and birds is arbitrary.

---

Proudly attempting to Google-Bomb Kent "The Idiot" Hovind's website

​

Idiot

buzsaw writes:

quote:

---

1. Both dino and reptile generally larger than birds.

---

Are you sure? You seem to be thinking that crocs and alligators represent the typical reptile as opposed to the tiny lizards one can see almost anywhere.

quote:

---

2. Both dino and reptile have four legs. Bird two legs, 2 wings.

---

Um, wings are legs. You have substituted semantics for biology.

quote:

---

3. Both dino and reptile land creatures. Bird generally flying creature.

---

Um, pterodactyls flew just as bats (who aren't birds no matter what the Bible says) fly.You are confusing the detail for the general.

quote:

---

4. Both dino and reptile tails generally more similar than bird.

---

Incorrect.

quote:

---

5. Both dino and reptile not feathered like bird.

---

Archaeopteryx. Have you simply not paid attention to the various fossils showing feathered dinosaurs?

quote:

---

6. Both dino and reptile mouth and teeth unlike beaked bird.

---

If you watch the embryological development of birds, you find that they do, indeed, have teeth. But during their development, the body absorbs the teeth. That's why we have the phrase, "As rare as hen's teeth." Every now and then you find a bird that has teeth.Note, baleen whales have the same process. One of the characteristics of all mammals is their teeth. But, baleen whales don't have teeth in their final form, so what gives? Simple: Look at the embryological development and you find that baleen whale embryos do have teeth that get absorbed.Why would god create a creature that develops teeth it never uses and needs to absorb back into the body?

quote:

---

7. Many birds migrate. Dino and reptile stays put.

---

Irrelevant. Lizards, being cold-blooded, tend to live in areas that get enough warmth to keep them active. Thus, they have no need to migrate. Birds, being warm-blooded, don't have that restriction.

quote:

---

8. Neither dino or reptile has song like bird voice.

---

As others have pointed out, you have no idea what a dinosaur sounded like.

quote:

---

9. General appearance of dino if leggs cropped much more like reptile than birdie.

---

Incorrect. Lizards have legs that come out the side with five toes. Dinos and birds have legs that come out the bottom with three toes.

---

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

really? see what happens when i don't follow paleontology for a while? got any links for that? i'd really be interested in seeing a picture of that, or at least an article.you seem to know a lot about the field. are you a working paleontologist? i wanted to be one when i was a child, but sort of lost interest at some point.