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Author Topic:   Evolution vs Creation
Randy
Member (Idle past 6268 days)
Posts: 420
From: Cincinnati OH USA
Joined: 07-19-2002


Message 61 of 147 (17393)
09-13-2002 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Fred Williams
09-13-2002 8:00 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Fred Williams:
Randy, I've run out of time and will try to respond to this thread next week, provided I can find time (I no longer post on the weekends). If you can, try to find the paper that supposedly disputes the condylarth find. I'd be curious to see it. Thanks. Have a good weekend.
Thanks,
I have found a couple of papers that say the teeth are tentitively identifed as belonging to the most primitve placental mammals known but not the one I recall reading that challenged the identification completely. I know I have it bookmarked or as a pdf or in a file somewhere. I once read that there are three kinds of people in the world. The haves and the have nots and I the third type. A can't find.
I am leaving the country for two weeks for some meetings in Scotland (it's a tough job but someone has to do it) and I have a very hectic schedule when I get back so I will not be around much for a while either.
Chat with you later.
Randy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Fred Williams, posted 09-13-2002 8:00 PM Fred Williams has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1727 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 62 of 147 (17455)
09-15-2002 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Fred Williams
09-12-2002 7:23 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by sonofasailor:
I think my original post is being forgotten. SOS[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, that happens. Many times, threads turn into personal soap boxes and the original line of thought is completely lost. Unfortunately, much of what has happened here has gone on many times before (just in case you didn't get the undercurrent of a history). And much of what we have read on this thread has been posted many times before. You get used it.
quote:
Fred: Good point. Like I said before, there is a good reason. It is very, very difficult to defend the fairlytale of evolution.
Yep, heard this before. Not a substantial statement, but part of the routine.
quote:
You must believe and accept it on blind faith, not evidence. You are required to make your mind up despite the evidence. Soon, if you take this route, you'll begin to convince yourself that there is evidence for the theory.
This is actually contrary to what usually happens. Most evolutionists were steeped in creation lore for the first dozen years or more of life before seeing the actual evidence. But never mind. This is part of creationist legend.
quote:
Stories from Dawkins, et al, will "evolve" from fantasy to reality. But all the while the evidence didn't change, just your perception of it.
Yes, I remember reading Dawkins in my youth. [/sarcasm]
quote:
Fred: Someone want to post answers to each of Erik's 5 questions in this thread? Nothing like good story-telling before the weekend!
Actually, this has been done at least to a large degree. However, perhaps I should take a quick stab at # 4.
quote:
4. How do I know Radio carbon dating is accurate in its dating techniques?
The short answer is: unless you know something additional about about any particular date, you don't know that it is accurate. The best thing to do is check on the credibility of the researcher. If the author is creationist, then you can pretty much bet that the radiocarbon date is invalid. I would go with authors published in the peer-reviewed literature.
There are a lot of ways to screw up a radiocarbon date. That is why we don't leave it to amateurs at any step in the process. The only real problem is that some people feel that if there is a potential source of error, then the entire method is invalid. This is over-simplified logic. If we used it in every day life, we would still be living in caves.
Basically, check the credentials of the author and you can make a qualitative judgement as to the validity of a radiocarbon date. If you want to get further into this, there are many websites and books that deal with the methodology of carbon dating. Even most high school textbooks will give you a general idea, including some of the pitfalls waiting for the uninitiated researcher.
To Fred: Remember, I'd like to hear about the research by Austin/Nevins on the stratified log beds in Spirit Lake; and also the story (fairy tale?) about the Grand Canyon outlet being at a higher elevation than the inlet. Seems to me that someone might have noticed this and it would be one of the wonders of the world. Both of these stories you have told are kind of vague and difficult to respond to unless you can give us more information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Fred Williams, posted 09-12-2002 7:23 PM Fred Williams has not replied

  
wj
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 147 (17630)
09-17-2002 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Fred Williams
09-13-2002 8:00 PM


Fred, the weekend seems to be well and truly over.
Are you going to address the outstanding matters on this thread?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Fred Williams, posted 09-13-2002 8:00 PM Fred Williams has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by edge, posted 09-21-2002 5:34 PM wj has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1727 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 64 of 147 (17938)
09-21-2002 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by wj
09-17-2002 8:59 PM


quote:
Originally posted by wj:
Fred, the weekend seems to be well and truly over.
Are you going to address the outstanding matters on this thread?

Just a gentle reminder for Fred. He has made a lot of assertions on this thread. It would be good form to answer at least some of the issues, rather than coming back every two months and dumping the same old 'stuff.'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by wj, posted 09-17-2002 8:59 PM wj has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by wj, posted 09-24-2002 12:41 AM edge has not replied

  
wj
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 147 (18088)
09-24-2002 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by edge
09-21-2002 5:34 PM


^ bump ^
Well, we're into a new week. Any responses Fred?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by edge, posted 09-21-2002 5:34 PM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by wj, posted 09-25-2002 9:08 PM wj has replied

  
wj
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 147 (18304)
09-25-2002 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by wj
09-24-2002 12:41 AM


^ bump ^

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by wj, posted 09-24-2002 12:41 AM wj has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by TheBlindProphet, posted 09-27-2002 4:40 PM wj has not replied
 Message 69 by wj, posted 10-31-2002 7:36 PM wj has not replied

  
TheBlindProphet
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 147 (18448)
09-27-2002 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by wj
09-25-2002 9:08 PM


I'm new, but I've been looking at the evidence so far and I see that there are still a LOT of things you evolutionists can't explain (about organic evolution. Others soon to follow).
1. The Law of Biogenesis
Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the law of biogenesis. The theory of evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes.
2. Acquired characteristics
Acquired characteristics cannot be inherited.a For example, large muscles acquired by a man in a weight-lifting program cannot be inherited by his child. Nor did giraffes get long necks because their ancestors stretched to reach high leaves. While almost all evolutionists agree that acquired characteristics cannot be inherited, many unconsciously slip into this erroneous belief. On occasion, Darwin did. However, stressful environments for at least a few animals and plants cause their offspring to express various defenses. New genetic traits are not created; instead, the environment can switch on genetic machinery already present. The marvel is that genetic machinery already exists to handle various contingencies, not that the environment or a need can produce the machinery. Also, rates of variation within a kind (microevolution, not macroevolution) increase enormously when organisms are under stress, such as starvation. This situation was widespread in the centuries after the flood.
3. Mendel’s Laws
Mendel’s laws of genetics and their modern-day refinements explain almost all physical variations observed in living things. Mendel discovered that genes (units of heredity) are merely reshuffled from one generation to another. Different combinations are formed, not different genes. The different combinations produce many variations within each kind of life, such as in the dog family. A logical consequence of Mendel’s laws is that there are limits to such variation.
4. Bounded Variations
While Mendel’s laws give a theoretical explanation why variations are limited, broad experimental verification also exists. For example, if evolution happened, organisms (such as bacteria) that quickly produce the most offspring, should have the most variations and mutations. Natural selection would then select the more favorable changes, allowing organisms with those traits to survive, reproduce, and pass on their beneficial genes. Therefore, organisms that have allegedly evolved the most should have short reproduction cycles and many offspring. We see the opposite. In general, more complex organisms, such as humans, have fewer offspring and longer reproduction cycles.a Again, variations within existing organisms appear to be bounded.
Organisms that occupy the most diverse environments in the greatest numbers for the longest times should also, according to evolution, have the greatest potential for evolving new features and species. Microbes falsify this prediction as well. Their numbers per species are astronomical, and they are dispersed throughout practically all the world’s environments. Nevertheless, the number of microbial species are relatively few.b New features apparently don’t evolve.
5. Natural Selection
Natural selection cannot produce new genes; it only selects among preexisting characteristics.a As the word selection implies, variations are reduced, not increased. For example, many mistakenly believe that resistances evolve in response to pesticides and antibiotics. Sometimes, a previously lost capability is reestablished, making it appear something evolved.b Sometimes, a mutation or variation damaging to the bacteria reduces the antibiotic’s effectiveness even more.c Sometimes nonresistant bacteria appropriate genes from resistant bacteria.d Sometimes, a few resistant insects and bacteria were already present when the pesticides and antibiotics were first applied. When the vulnerable insects and bacteria were killed, resistant varieties had less competition and, therefore, proliferated.e While natural selection occurred, nothing evolved and, in fact, some biological diversity was lost. The variations Darwin observed among finches on different Galapagos islands is another example of natural selection producing micro- (not macro-) evolution. While natural selection sometimes explains the survival of the fittest, it does not explain the origin of the fittest. Actually, natural selection prevents major evolutionary changes.
6. Mutations
Mutations are the only known means by which new genetic material becomes available for evolution.a Rarely, if ever, is a mutation beneficial to an organism in its natural environment. Almost all observable mutations are harmful; some are meaningless; many are lethal. No known mutation has ever produced a form of life having greater complexity and viability than its ancestors.
7. Fruit Flies
A century of fruit fly experiments, involving 3,000 consecutive generations, gives absolutely no basis for believing that any natural or artificial process can cause an increase in complexity and viability. No clear genetic improvement has ever been observed in any form of life, despite the many unnatural efforts to increase mutation rates.
8. Complex Molecules and Organs
Many molecules necessary for life, such as DNA, RNA, and proteins, are so complex that claims concerning their evolution are questionable. Furthermore, such claims lack experimental support. There is no reason to believe that mutations or any natural process could ever produce any new organsespecially those as complex as the eye,b the ear, or the brain.c For example, an adult human brain contains over 1014 (a hundred thousand billion) electrical connections,d more than all the electrical connections in all the electrical appliances in the world. The human heart, a ten-ounce pump that will operate without maintenance or lubrication for about 75 years, is another engineering marvel.
9. Fully-Developed Organs
All species appear fully developed, not partially developed. They show design.a There are no examples of half-developed feathers, eyes,b skin, tubes (arteries, veins, intestines, etc.), or any of thousands of other vital organs. Tubes that are not 100% complete are a liability; so are partially developed organs. For example, if a leg of a reptile were to evolve into a wing of a bird, it would become a bad leg long before it became a good wing.
10. Distinct Types
If evolution happened, one would expect to see gradual transitions among many living things. For example, variations of dogs might blend in with variations of cats. Actually, some animals, such as the duckbilled platypus, have organs totally unrelated to their alleged evolutionary ancestors. The platypus has fur, is warm-blooded, and suckles its young as do mammals. It lays leathery eggs, has a single ventral opening (for elimination, mating, and birth), and has claws and a shoulder girdle as most reptiles do. The platypus can detect electrical currents (a.c. and d.c.) as some fish can, and has a bill like a ducka bird. It has webbed forefeet like an otter, a flat tail like a beaver, and the male can inject poisonous venom like a pit viper. Such patchwork animals and plants, called mosaics, have no logical place on the evolutionary tree. There is no direct evidence that any major group of animals or plants arose from any other major group.a Species are observed only going out of existence (extinctions), never coming into existence.
11. Altruism
Humans and many animals will endanger or even sacrifice their lives to save anothersometimes the life of another species.a Natural selection, which evolutionists say explains all individual characteristics, should rapidly eliminate altruistic (self-sacrificing) individuals. How could such risky, costly behavior ever be inherited, because its possession tends to prevent the altruistic individual from passing on its genes for altruism?b If evolution were correct, selfish behavior should have completely eliminated unselfish behavior.c Furthermore, cheating and aggression should have weeded out cooperation. Altruism contradicts evolution.
12. Extraterrestrial Life?
No verified form of extraterrestrial life of any kind has ever been observed. If evolution had occurred on earth, one would expect at least simple forms of life, such as microbes, would have been found by the elaborate experiments sent to the Moon and Mars.
13. Language
Children as young as seven months understand grammatical rules.a Furthermore, studies of 36 documented cases of children raised without human contact (feral children) suggest that language is learned only from other humans; humans do not automatically speak. If this is so, the first humans must have been endowed with a language ability. There is no evidence language evolved.b
Nonhumans communicate, but not with language. True language requires both vocabulary and grammar. With great effort, human trainers have taught some chimpanzees and gorillas to recognize a few hundred spoken words, to point to up to 200 symbols, and to make limited hand signs. These impressive feats are sometimes exaggerated by editing the animals’ successes on film. (Some early demonstrations were flawed by the trainer’s hidden promptings.c)
Apes have not demonstrated these skills in the wild and do not pass them on to others. When a trained animal dies, so does the trainer’s investment. Also, trained apes have essentially no grammatical ability. Only with grammar can a few words express many ideas. No known evidence shows that language exists or evolves in nonhumans, but apparently all human groups have language. If language evolved, the earliest languages should be the simplest. On the contrary, language studies show that the more ancient the language (for example: Latin, 200 B.C.; Greek, 800 B.C.; and Vedic Sanskrit, 1500 B.C.), the more complex it is with respect to syntax, case, gender, mood, voice, tense, and verb form. The best evidence indicates that languages devolve; that is, they become simpler instead of more complex.e Most linguists reject the idea that simple languages evolve into complex languages.
14. Speech
Speech is uniquely human.a Humans have both a prewired brain capable of learning and conveying abstract ideas, and the physical anatomy (mouth, throat, tongue, larynx, etc.) to produce a wide range of sounds. Only a few animals can approximate some human sounds.
Because the human larynx is low in the neck, a long air column lies above the vocal cords. This is important for making vowel sounds. Apes cannot make clear vowel sounds, because they lack this long air column. The back of the human tongue, extending deep into the neck, modulates the air flow to help produce consonant sounds. Apes have flat, horizontal tongues, incapable of making consonant sounds.
Even if an ape could evolve all the physical equipment for speech, that equipment would be useless without a prewired brain for learning language skills, especially grammar and vocabulary.
15. Codes and Programs
In our experience, codes are produced only by intelligence, not by natural processes or chance. A code is a set of rules for converting information from one useful form to another. Examples include Morse code and braille. The genetic material that controls the physical processes of life is coded information. It also is accompanied by elaborate transmission, translation, and duplication systems, without which the genetic material would be useless, and life would cease. Therefore, it seems most reasonable to conclude that the genetic code, the accompanying transmission, translation, and duplication systems, and all living organisms were produced by an extremely high level of intelligence using nonnatural (or supernatural) processes.
Likewise, no natural process has ever been observed to produce a program. A program is a planned sequence of steps to accomplish some goal. Computer programs are common examples. The information stored in the genetic material of all life is a complex program. Because programs are not produced by chance or natural processes, it seems most likely that an intelligent, supernatural source developed these programs.
16. Information
All isolated systems contain specific, but perishable, amounts of information.a No isolated system has ever been observed to increase its information content significantly. Natural processes, without exception, destroy information. Only outside intelligence can increase the information content of an otherwise isolated system. All scientific observations are consistent with this generalization, which has three corollaries or consequences:
Macroevolution cannot occur.
Outside intelligence was involved in the creation of the universe and all forms of life.
Life could not result from a big bang.
This is what I got on bio. evolution. There's more to come. Hey if NOS can try to refute what I belive in with his list of contradictions, I feel it's at least my duty to do this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by wj, posted 09-25-2002 9:08 PM wj has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by mark24, posted 09-27-2002 5:47 PM TheBlindProphet has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 68 of 147 (18456)
09-27-2002 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by TheBlindProphet
09-27-2002 4:40 PM


Blindprophet,
1/ There IS NO LAW OF BIOGENESIS!!!!!!! Evolution & abiogenesis are separate entities.
2/ Why does the non-inheritance of aquired characteristics need to be explained by evolution? An elementary knowledge of genetics will tell you why it is so.
3/ Well what is the part of almost all physical variations that you have a problem with? Presumably there are some that aren’t reliant on mendelian genetics, then.
4/ So why are we not seeing a trend for more & more offspring, then?
Offspring & reproduction cost resources. Many organisms will be UNABLE to reproduce if they are under environmental stress, eg females will become temporarily unreceptive. Having huge broods/lots of seeds etc means the parent organisms have to provide resources to get those progeny into the open air in the first place, huge broods will simply kill the parents unless permanent times of plenty are experienced. This is why there is an optimum number of offspring for various organisms. It matches the reality of their environments.
5/ Strawman. Who said a requirement of NS was to produce new genes? That would require mutation, non?
6/ Patently wrong.
http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm
The ADDITION of a thymine changed the functionality of a gene to confer nylon digesting abilities.
Evidence suggests that most mutations are neutral, or nearly so, with a large minority being harmful, & a small amount being beneficial.
7/ See above. Beneficial mutations occur.
8/ There are excellent reasons to believe evolution was responsible for complex structures. Fossil & molecular evidence provides strong support for common descent of major taxa. How could this happen without macroevolution.
9/ Wrong AGAIN!!
New Chinese fossils show dinosaurs, older than Archeopterix with a covering of filamentous, feather like fibres (Sinosauropteryx), later fossils (Caudipteryx) Has the same coat, but with stiffer feathers (recognisably so) on it’s hands & tail. I mention these two, but there are more.
10/ We do see types blending in with other organisms, ever heard of hybridisation? The reason dogs & cats can’t hybridise is that they are too genetically dissimilar.
11/ Nope, altruism is genetic, not organismal. Ie a trait that allows non-altruistic behaviour may very well be reinforced if it allows that same genetic material to be passed on, or to protect mates, progeny etc.
12/ Show me an earth like planet, & you may have a point.
13/ & 14/ I’ll leave to those better qualified than me.
15/ Even if the original code were created, it doesn’t preclude evolution at all!
http://bayes.colorado.edu/Papers/rewiring.pdf
Note page 51. A phylogeny derived from coding differences in extant organisms. OMG!!!! It matches current ideas of descent?!?! How the devil could that happen?
Why are their exceptions to the "universal" code at all?
16/ Utterly, demonstrably wrong, I refer you to our nylon digesting bacteria, again. God didn’t grant the little critter the ability to digest nylon.
quote:
No isolated system has ever been observed to increase its information content significantly
No, but small Insignificant increases can amount to significant increase, non?
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by TheBlindProphet, posted 09-27-2002 4:40 PM TheBlindProphet has not replied

  
wj
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 147 (21217)
10-31-2002 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by wj
09-25-2002 9:08 PM


Fred, now that you have agian become active on this board, are you going to address the outstanding issues on this thread?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by wj, posted 09-25-2002 9:08 PM wj has not replied

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 1897 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 70 of 147 (21267)
11-01-2002 12:40 PM


Nah... He's just in a post-and-run flurry.
when the heat gets turned up, he will all of a sudden have company or get really busy at work...
Just like always...

  
wj
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 147 (21479)
11-03-2002 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by wj
09-13-2002 12:25 AM


Fred, is your weekend over now? Are you going to respond to my questions in message #58? Are you going to address all the other outstanding issues in this thread? I note that Randy is back so we're all here awaiting your substantive responses.
Otherwise one could get the impression that your are making up a fairytale which has no supporting evidence, or that you are disingenuous and will not explain and defend your assertions in a neutral forum (ie. one which you do not moderate, either openly or in disguise).
O2U Fred

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by wj, posted 09-13-2002 12:25 AM wj has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Mammuthus, posted 11-04-2002 3:30 AM wj has replied
 Message 80 by wj, posted 11-13-2002 8:32 PM wj has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 72 of 147 (21488)
11-04-2002 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by wj
11-03-2002 10:49 PM


quote:
Originally posted by wj:
Fred, is your weekend over now? Are you going to respond to my questions in message #58? Are you going to address all the other outstanding issues in this thread? I note that Randy is back so we're all here awaiting your substantive responses.
Otherwise one could get the impression that your are making up a fairytale which has no supporting evidence, or that you are disingenuous and will not explain and defend your assertions in a neutral forum (ie. one which you do not moderate, either openly or in disguise).
O2U Fred

******************
check out some of the other threads...he is only expanding the list of questions he refuses (because he cannot ) answer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by wj, posted 11-03-2002 10:49 PM wj has replied

Replies to this message:
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wj
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 147 (21550)
11-04-2002 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Mammuthus
11-04-2002 3:30 AM


Well Fred, how about it? Are you going to respond to the outstanding issues in this thread. I suspect that you might be feeling very uncomfortable about the corner you have backed yourself into when making your assertions from a position of ignorance about Australian flora and fauna but you really can't back out without completely losing face.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Mammuthus, posted 11-04-2002 3:30 AM Mammuthus has not replied

Replies to this message:
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 147 (21831)
11-08-2002 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Randy
08-27-2002 10:18 PM


just wondering how fossils disprove the flood? i'd like to know why you say that.. as you gave no backing to it, though i am new on here, i am curious to hear what sort of evidence you have against the flood..
------------------
saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Randy, posted 08-27-2002 10:18 PM Randy has not replied

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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 147 (21832)
11-08-2002 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by wj
11-04-2002 6:11 PM


after reading through all this. for one thing i don't believe any of you are seeking truth. unfortunately even the creationist has been sucked into a mudslinging mockery of each other instead of just putting forth points in an effort to discover the truth ... but i believe that the bible is the word of the living God and it says in genesis that he created the heavens and the earth and he did it in 6 days. and i can't prove my point to you in debate if you do not believe that the bible is God's word. my biggest problem with evolution is i do not see it. i feel God i talk to him and he speaks to me. i pray and he answers. i know he is real.. i do not see evolution even with my eyes. i see exactly the oposite.. so that's about all i have to say for now though i will be back to post a more organized and informed defense for the Creator...
------------------
saved by grace

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