Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,745 Year: 4,002/9,624 Month: 873/974 Week: 200/286 Day: 7/109 Hour: 3/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Biblical Creationism Requires Evolution
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1430 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 61 of 121 (453967)
02-04-2008 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Lemkin
02-04-2008 8:46 PM


Re: creolution?
I'm not sure if that is the same thing as superevolution or not,
"superevolution" is what creationists (have to) use to populate the world with the current diversity from a small population of species on some wooden ship ... and no, it is not the same as real evolution. It would have to occur at such a rate as to be visible, on the order of days per new species.
You're right, an ape splitting off into seperate species of apes is evolution, but then again creationists don't have a problem with evolution in general.
Correct, the problem is in which and how many common ancestors we started with. Exaberated by an insistence on a falsified concept regarding the age of the earth.
Creationists have a problem with macro and steller evolution. What you are talking about is micro-evolution,
Stellar evolution has nothing to do with biological systems or any part of the science of biology, rather it is a term with a special meaning withing the science of astronomy.
Macro evolution is a different issue, usually having to do with misunderstanding of taxonomy and what speciation means to biodiversity. Perhaps you can define what you think "macro evolution" involves ...
Welcome to the fray Lemkin.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Lemkin, posted 02-04-2008 8:46 PM Lemkin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Taz, posted 02-05-2008 1:27 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3317 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 62 of 121 (453981)
02-05-2008 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by tesla
02-04-2008 7:19 PM


Re: Devolution?
tesla writes:
EXACTLY.
but does he?
Honestly, tesla, do you even understand the significance of 2 centromeres and 4 telomeres in the human chromosome number 2? Or is your pride too big to even consider that it might be relevant to this issue?
Since T4C pointed this out to you, I'll let him explain the significance of this fact.
you answere me then, is it not just as logical for a chromosome to be deleted via evolution, as it could have been added?
Jesus Christ, tesla. A chromosome didn't get deleted or added during the course of human evolution. Again, the whole crux of the matter lies in the fact that the human chromosome number 2 has 2 centromeres and 4 telomeres.
honestly not much of this makes a whole lot of sense to me, but logically, evolution can move up or down by habits.
Evolution isn't about moving "up" or "down" as you imply it. Again, I'll leave this to T4C, as he started this.
By the way, that quote you have there (whereever it came from... please provide link) has almost nothing to do with the main point T4C was trying to make.
you answere me then, is it not just as logical for a chromosome to be deleted via evolution, as it could have been added?
The word "logic" and its variations are getting thrown around a lot, as if they make you sound smarter or something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by tesla, posted 02-04-2008 7:19 PM tesla has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3317 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 63 of 121 (453983)
02-05-2008 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by CTD
02-04-2008 8:48 PM


Re: Enough Already
CTD writes:
If mutation was the cause of bacteria gaining resistance, what are the odds of that mutation cropping up? One in tens of billions, at least. But those experiments are readily repeatable. That's because recombination is the cause - not mutation, no way no how.
*Blink* You did not just say that did you?
Do you have any idea how many billions upon billions of individual bacteria that clump together in a colony just to be visible to our naked eye? Hint: that white circle that increases in circumference in your petri dish ain't just 1 bacterium getting bigger and bigger. It's literally a mass of billions upon billions of individuals that came about from a single mother bacterium.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by CTD, posted 02-04-2008 8:48 PM CTD has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3317 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 64 of 121 (453984)
02-05-2008 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by RAZD
02-04-2008 10:05 PM


Re: creolution?
RAZD writes:
"superevolution" is what creationists (have to) use to populate the world with the current diversity from a small population of species on some wooden ship ... and no, it is not the same as real evolution. It would have to occur at such a rate as to be visible, on the order of days per new species.
Even IFF superevolution is true, creationists would also have to explain how the marsupials got to Australia or how the polar bears got to the poles. I'm guessing they want us to believe that kankaroos swam across thousands of miles of open ocean to get to Australia... and somehow none of them survived on mainland Eurasia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by RAZD, posted 02-04-2008 10:05 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3731 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 65 of 121 (454002)
02-05-2008 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by CTD
02-04-2008 8:48 PM


Re: Enough Already
It's such a secret that we find little gems like this with only a superficial search using Google.
Page not found – Posada Lab
At the risk of a chiding for providing a long cut and paste, have a look throught the following. This is the reference section for the article linked to above. Please note the dates of many of the articles cited by the authors. For anyone who really can't be bothered to plough through this list, I can tell you that there are articles fron the 1960's onwards. All of this information is in the public domain!! How does this gel with your statement
That's why recombination's kept secret to the extent it's practical to do so
?
1. Lewin, B., Genes VI. 1997, Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1260.
2. Schierup, M.H. and J. Hein, Consequences of recombination on traditional phylogenetic
analysis. Genetics, 2000. 156: p. 879-891.
3. Schierup, M.H. and J. Hein, Recombination and the molecular clock. Mol. Biol. Evol., 2000.
17(10): p. 1578-1579.
4. Awadalla, P., The evolutionary genomics of pathogen recombination. Nat. Rev. Genet., 2003.
4: p. 50-60.
5. Posada, D. and K.A. Crandall, Evaluation of methods for detecting recombination from DNA
sequences: computer simulations. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 2001. 98(24): p. 13757-13762.
6. Posada, D., Evaluation of methods for detecting recombination from DNA sequences:
empirical data. Mol. Biol. Evol., 2002. 19(5): p. 708-17.
7. Hudson, R.R. and N.L. Kaplan, Statistical properties of the number of recombination events
in the history of a sample of DNA sequences. Genetics, 1985. 111: p. 147-164.
8. Posada, D., K.A. Crandall, and E.C. Holmes, Recombination in evolutionary genomics. Annu.
Rev. Genet., 2002. 36: p. 75-97.
9. Hey, J., A multi-dimensional coalescent process applied to multi-allelic selection models and
migration models. Theor. Popul. Biol., 1991. 39(1): p. 30-48.
10. Sano, A., A. Shimizu, and M. Izuka, Coalescent process with fluctuating population size and
its effective size. Theor. Popul. Biol., 2004. 65(1): p. 39-48.
11. Stephens, J.C., On the frequency of undetectable recombination events. Genetics, 1986. 112:
p. 923-926.
12. Maynard Smith, J. and N.H. Smith, Detecting recombination from gene trees. Mol. Biol.
Evol., 1998. 15: p. 590-599.
13. Crandall, K.A. and A.R. Templeton, Statistical methods for detecting recombination, in The
Evolution of HIV, K.A. Crandall, Editor. 1999, Johns Hopkins Univ. Press: Baltimore, MD. p.
153-76.
14. Feil, E.J. and B.G. Spratt, Recombination and the population structures of bacterial
pathogens. Annu. Rev. Microbiol., 2001. 55: p. 561-590.
15. Posada, D. and K.A. Crandall, Intraspecific gene genealogies: trees grafting into networks.
Trends Ecol. Evol., 2001. 16(1): p. 37-45.
16. Hudson, R.R., Splits tree: a program for analyzing and visualizing evolutionary data.
Bioinformatics, 1998. 14: p. 68-73.
17. Lewontin, R.C., On measures of gametic disequilibrium. Genetics, 1988. 120: p. 849-852.
18. Hill, W.G., Estimation of linkage disequilibrium in randomly mating populations. Heredity,
1974. 33(2): p. 229-239.
19. Hedrick, P. and S. Kumar, Mutation and linkage disequilibrium in human mtDNA. Eur. J.
Hum. Genet., 2001. 9: p. 969-972.
20. Meunier, J. and A. Eyre-Walker, The correlation between linkage disequilibrium and
distance: implications for recombination in hominid mitochondria. Mol. Biol. Evol., 2001.
18(11): p. 2132-2135.
21. Lewontin, R.C. and K. Kojima, The evolutionary dynamics of complex polymorphisms.
Evolution, 1960. 14: p. 450-472.
22. Hill, W.G. and A. Robertson, Linkage disequilibrium in finite populations. Theor. Appl.
Genet., 1968. 38: p. 226-231.
23. Felsenstein, J., The evolutionary advantage of recombination. Genetics, 1974. 78: p. 737-756.
24. Hill, W.G. and A. Robertson, The effect of linkage on limits to artificial selection. Genet.
Res., 1966. 8: p. 269-294.
25. Kingman, J.F.C., The coalescent. Stochastic Processes and Their Applications, 1982. 13: p.
235-248.
26. Griffiths, R.C. and S. Tavare, Ancestral inference in population genetics. Stat. Sci., 1994. 9:
p. 307-319.
27. Hudson, R.R., Properties of the neutral allele model with intergenic recombination. Theor.
Popul. Biol., 1983. 23: p. 183-201.
28. Wiuf, C. and J. Hein, Recombination as a point process along sequences. Theor. Popul. Biol.,
1999. 55: p. 248-259.
29. Wiuf, C. and J. Hein, The ancestry of a sample of sequences subject to recombination.
Genetics, 1999. 151: p. 1217-1228.
30. Wiuf, C. and D. Posada, A coalescent model of recombination hotspots. Genetics, 2003.
164(1): p. 407-17.
31. Rosenberg, N.A. and M. Nordborg, Genealogical trees, coalescent theory and the analysis of
genetic polymorphisms. Nat. Rev. Genet., 2002. 3(5): p. 380-90.
32. Griffiths, R.C. and P. Marjoram, Ancestral inference from samples of DNA sequences with
recombination. J. Comp. Biol., 1996. 3(4): p. 479-502.
33. Griffiths, R.C. and P. Marjoram, An ancestral recombination graph, in Progress in
population genetics and human evolution, P. Donelly and S. Tavaré, Editors. 1997, Springer-
Verlag: Berlin. p. 257-270.
34. Hudson, R.R., Estimating the recombination parameter of a finite population model without
selection. Genet. Res., 1987. 50(3): p. 245-250.
35. Wakeley, J., Using the variance of pairwise differences to estimate the recombination rate.
Genet. Res., 1997. 69: p. 45-48.
36. Fearnhead, P. and P. Donnelly, Estimating recombination rates from population genetic data.
Genetics, 2001. 159: p. 1299-1318.
37. Stumpf, M.P. and G.A.T. McVean, Estimating recombination rates from population-genetic
data. Nat. Rev. Genet., 2003. 4: p. 959-968.
38. McVean, G.A.T., P. Awadalla, and P. Fearnhead, A coalescent-based method for detecting
and estimating recombination from gene sequences. Genetics, 2002. 160: p. 1231-1241.
39. Wall, J.D., A comparison of estimators of the population recombination rate. Mol. Biol.
Evol., 2000. 17: p. 156-163.
40. Posada, D. and K.A. Crandall, The effect of recombination on the accuracy of phylogeny
estimation. J. Mol. Evol., 2002. 54(3): p. 396-402.
41. Posada, D., Unveiling the molecular clock in the presence of recombination. Mol. Biol. Evol.,
2001. 18(10): p. 1976-8.
42. Shriner, D., et al., Potential impact of recombination on sitewise approaches for detecting
positive natural selection. Genet. Res., 2003. 81: p. 115-121.
43. Anisimova, M., R. Nielsen, and Z. Yang, Effect of Recombination on the Accuracy of the
Likelihood Method for Detecting Positive Selection at Amino Acid Sites. Genetics, 2003.
164(3): p. 1229-1236.
44. Wiuf, C., T. Christensen, and J. Hein, A simulation study of the reliability of recombination
detection methods. Mol. Biol. Evol., 2001. 18: p. 1929-1939.
45. Fearnhead, P., Consistency of estimators of the population-scaled recombination rate. Theor.
Popul. Biol., 2003. 64: p. 67-79.
46. Miller, R.V., Bacterial gene swapping in nature. Scientific America, 1998. 1: p. 46.
47. DuBose, R.F., D.E. Dykhuizen, and D.L. Hartl, Genetic exchange among natural isolates of
bacteria: recombination within the phoA gene of Escherichia coli. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci.
USA, 1998. 85: p. 7036-7040.
48. Smith, J.M., C.G. Dowson, and B.G. Spratt, Localised sex in bacteria. Nature, 1991. 349: p.
29-31.
49. Bowler, L.D., et al., Inter-species recombination between the penA genes of Neisseria
meningitidis and commensal Neisseria species during the emergence of penicillin resistance
in N. meningitidis: natural events and laboratory simulation. J. Bacteriol., 1994. 176: p. 333-
337.
50. Dowson, C.G., et al., Penicillin-resistant viridans streptococci have obtained altered
penicillin-binding protein genes from penicillin-resistant strains of Streptococcus
pneumoniae. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 1990. 87: p. 5858-5862.
51. Reeves, P.R., Evolution of Salmonella O antigen variation by interspecific gene transfer on a
large scale. Trends Genet., 1993. 9: p. 17-22.
52. Matic, I., F. Taddei, and M. Radman, Genetic barriers among bacteria. Trends Microbiol.,
1996. 4: p. 69-73.
53. Davies, J.E., Inactivation of antibiotics and the dissemination of resistance genes. Science,
1994. 267: p. 375-382.
54. Musser, J.M., et al., Clonal analysis of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus strains
from intercontinental sources: association of the mec gene with divergent phylogenetic
lineages implies dissemination by horizontal gene transfer and recombination. J. Clin.
Microbiol., 1988. 30: p. 2058-2063.
55. Spratt, B.G., Resistance to antibiotics mediated by target alterations. Science, 1994. 264: p.
388-393.
56. Dzidic, S. and V. Bedekovic, Horizontal gene transfer-emerging multidrug resistance in
hospital bacteria. Acta Pharmacol. Sin., 2003. 24(6): p. 519-526.
57. Smith, J.M., et al., How clonal are bacteria? Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 1993. 90: p. 4384-
4388.
58. Go, M.F., et al., Population genetic analysis of Helicobacter pylori by multilocus enzyme
electrophoresis-extensive allelic diversity and recombinational population structure. J.
Bacteriol., 1996. 178: p. 3934-3938.
59. Feil, E.J., et al., Estimating recombiantional parameters in Streptococcus pneumoniae from
multilocus sequence typing data. Genetics, 2000. 154: p. 1439-1450.
60. Smith, J.M., E.J. Feil, and N.H. Smith, Population structure and evolutionary dynamics of
pathogenic bacteria. Bioessays, 2000. 22(12): p. 1115-1122.
61. Feil, E., et al., The relative contributions of recombination and mutation to the divergence of
clones of Neisseria meningitidis. Mol. Biol. Evol., 1999. 16(11): p. 1496-1502.
62. Viscidi, R.P. and J.C. Demma, Genetic diversity of Neisseria gonorrohoeae housekeeping
genes. J. Clin. Microbiol., 2003. 41(1): p. 197-204.
63. d'Alencon, E., et al., Copy-choice illegitimate DNA recombination revisited. The European
Molecular Biology Organization Journal, 1994. 13(11): p. 2725-2734.
64. Negroni, M. and H. Buc, Mechanisms of retroviral recombination. Annu. Rev. Genet., 2001.
35: p. 275-302.
65. Brunier, D., B. Michel, and S.D. Ehrlick, Copy choice illegitimate DNA recombination. Cell,
1988. 52: p. 883-892.
66. Lai, M.M., RNA recombination in animal and plant viruses. Microbiological Reviews, 1992.
56(1): p. 61-79.
67. Worobey, M. and E.C. Holmes, Evolutionary aspects of recombination in RNA viruses. J.
Gen. Virol, 1999. 80: p. 2535-2543.
68. Gibbs, M.J. and G.F. Weiller, Evidence that a plant virus switched hosts to infect a vertebrate
and then recombined with a vertebrate-infecting virus. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 1999. 96:
p. 8022-8027.
69. Worobey, M., Extensive homologous recombination among widely divergent TT viruses. J.
Virol., 2000. 74(16): p. 7666-7670.
70. Hu, W.S. and H.M. Temin, Retroviral recombination and reverse transcription. Science,
1990. 250: p. 1227-1233.
71. Jung, A., et al., Multiply infected spleen cells in HIV patients. Nature, 2002. 418: p. 144.
72. Gorman, O.T., W.J. Bean, and R.G. Webster, Evolutionary processes in influenza viruses:
divergence, rapid evolution, and stasis. Curr. Topic. Microbiol. Immunol., 2001.
73. Chare, E.R., E.A. Gould, and E.C. Holmes, Phylogenetic analysis reveals a low rate of
homologous recombination in negative-sense RNA viruses. J. Gen. Virol, 2003. 84: p. 2691-
2703.
74. Worobey, M. and E.C. Holmes, Homologous recombination in GB virus C/hepatitis G virus.
Mol. Biol. Evol., 2001. 18(2): p. 254-261.
75. Lai, M.M.C., Recombination in large RNA viruses: coronaviruses. Semin. Virol., 1996. 7(6):
p. 381-388.
76. Georgescu, M.M., et al., High diversity of poliovirus strains isolated from the central nervous
system from patients with vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis. J. Virol., 1994. 68(12):
p. 8089-8101.
77. Graur, D. and W.-H. Li, Fundamentals of molecular evolution. second ed. 2000, Sunderland,
Massachusetts: Sinauer Associates, Inc. 481.
78. Gray, M.W., Origin and evolution of mitochondrial DNA. Annu. Rev. Cell. Biol., 1989. 5: p.
25-50.
79. Ladoukakis, E.D. and E. Zouros, Direct evidence for homologous recombination in mussel
(Mytilus galloprovincialis) mitochondrial DNA. Mol. Biol. Evol., 2001. 18(7): p. 1168-1175.
80. Satoh, M. and T. Kuroiwa, Organization of multiple nucleoids and DNA molecules in
mitochondria of a human cell. Experimental Cell Research, 1991. 196: p. 137-140.
81. Legros, F., et al., Mitochondrial fusion in human cells is efficient, requires the inner
membrane potential, and is mediated by mitofusion. Mol. Biol. Cell, 2002. 13(2): p. 4343-
4354.
82. Yaffe, M.P., The machinery of mitochondrial inheritance and behavior. Science, 1999. 283:
p. 1493-1497.
83. Cortese, J.D., Rat liver GTP-binding proteins mediate changes in mitochondrial membrane
potential and organelle fusion. Am. J. Physiol. Cell. Physio., 1999. 276(3): p. C611-C620.
84. Santel, A. and M.T. Fuller, Control of mitochondrial morphology by a human mitofusion. J.
Cell. Sci., 2001. 114(5): p. 867-874.
85. Rokas, A., E. Ladoukakis, and E. Zouros, Animal mitochondrial DNA recombination
revisited. Trends Ecol. Evol., 2003. 18(8): p. 411-417.
86. Azpiroz, P. and R.A. Butow, Patterns of mitochondrial sorting in yeast zygotes. Mol. Biol.
Cell, 1993. 4(1): p. 21-36.
87. Enriquez, J.A., et al., Very rare complementation between mitochondria carrying different
mitochondrial DNA mutations points to intrinsic genetic autonomy of the organelles in
cultured human cells. J. Biol. Chem., 2000. 275(15): p. 11207-11215.
88. Schwartz, M. and J. Vissing, New patterns of inheritance in mitochondrial disease. Biochem.
Biophys. Res. Commun., 2003. 310: p. 247-251.
89. Thyagarajan, B., R.A. Padua, and C. Campbell, Mammalian mitochondria possess
homologous DNA recombination activity. J. Biol. Chem., 1996. 271(44): p. 27536-27543.
90. Lakshmipathy, U. and C. Campbell, Double strand break rejoining by mammalian
mitochondrial extracts. Nucleic Acids Res., 1999. 27(4): p. 1198-1204.
91. Holt, I.J., D.R. Dunbar, and H.T. Jacobs, Behavior of a population of partially duplicated
mitochondrial DNA molecules in cell culture: segregation, maintenance and recombination
dependent upon nuclear background. Hum. Mol. Genet., 1997. 6(8): p. 1251-1260.
92. Tang, Y., et al., Maintenance of human rearranged mitochondrial DNAs in long-term
cultured transmitochondrial cell lines. Mol. Biol. Cell, 2000. 11(7): p. 2349-2359.
93. Kvist, L., et al., Paternal leakage of mitochondrial DNA in the great tit (Parus major). Mol.
Biol. Evol., 2003. 20: p. 243-247.
94. Sutovsky, P., et al., Ubiquitinated sperm mitochondria, selective proteolysis, and the
regulation of mitochondrial inheritance in mammalian embryos. Biol. Reprod., 2000. 63: p.
582-590.
95. Kaneda, H., et al., Elimination of paternal mitochondrial DNA in intraspecific crosses during
early mouse embryogenesis. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 1995. 92: p. 4542-4546.
96. Shitara, H., et al., Selective and continuous elimination of mitochondria microinjected into
mouse eggs from spermatids, but not from liver cells, occurs throughout embryogenesis.
Genetics, 2000. 156: p. 1277-1284.
97. Kondo, N., et al., Incomplete maternal transmission of mitochondrial DNA in Drosophila.
Genetics, 1990. 126(3): p. 657-663.
98. Gyllensten, U., et al., Paternal inheritance of mitochondrial DNA in mice. Nature, 1991. 352:
p. 255-257.
99. Magoulas, A. and E. Zouros, Restriction-site heteroplasmy in anchovy (Engraulis
encrasicolus) indicates incidental biparental inheritance of mitochondrial DNA. Mol. Biol.
Evol., 1993. 10: p. 319-325.
100. Meusel, M.S. and R.F. Moritz, Transfer of paternal mitochondrial DNA during fertilization of
honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) eggs. Curr. Genet., 1993. 24: p. 539-543.
101. Nugent, J.M. and J.D. Palmer, RNA-mediated transfer of the gene coxII from the
mitochondrion to the nucleus during flowering plant evolution. Cell, 1991. 66: p. 476-481.
102. Van Den Boogaart, P., P. Samallo, and E. Agsteribbe, Similar genes for a mitochondrial
ATPase subunit in the nuclear and mitochondrial genomes of Neurospora crassa. Nature,
1982. 298: p. 137-189.
103. Farrelly, F. and R.A. Butow, Rearranged mitochondrial genes in the yeast nuclear genome.
Nature, 1983. 301: p. 296-301.
104. Gellissen, G., et al., Mitochondrial DNA sequences in the nuclear genome of a locust. Nature,
1983. 301(631-634).
105. Jacobs, H.T., et al., Mitochondrial DNA sequences in the nuclear genome of
Stronglyocentrotus purpuratus. J. Mol. Biol., 1983. 165: p. 609-632.
106. Louis, E.J. and J.E. Haber, Evolutionarily recent transfer of a group 1 mitochondrial intron to
telemere regions in Saccharomyces cerevisiae. Curr. Genet., 1991. 20: p. 411-415.
107. Kamimura, N., et al., Three separate mitochondrial DNA sequences are contiguous in human
genomic DNA. J. Mol. Biol., 1989. 210(4): p. 703-7.
108. Thorsness, P.E. and T.D. Fox, Escape of DNA from mitochondria to the nucleus in
Saccharomyces cerevisiae. Nature, 1990. 346: p. 376-379.
109. Doersen, C.J., et al., Characterization of an RNase P activity from HeLa cell mitochondria.
Comparison with the cytosol RNase P activity. J Biol Chem, 1985. 260(10): p. 5942-9.
110. Stoneking, M., Hypervariable sites in the mtDNA control region are mutational hotspots. Am.
J. Hum. Genet., 2000. 67: p. 1029-1032.
111. Howell, N. and C. Bogolin Smejkal, Persistent heteroplasmy of a mutation in the human
mtDNA control region: hypermutation as an apparent consequence of simple-repeat
expansion/contraction. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 2000. 66: p. 1589-1598.
112. Awadalla, P., A. Eyre-Walker, and J.M. Smith, Linkage disequilibrium and recombination in
hominid mitochondrial DNA. Science, 1999. 286: p. 2524-2525.
113. Eyre-Walker, A., N.H. Smith, and J.M. Smith, How clonal are human mitochondria?
Proceedings of the Royal Society of London Series B-Bioloigcal Sciences, 1999. 266: p. 477-
483.
114. Hagelberg, E., et al., Evidence for mitochondrial recombination in a human population of
island Melanesia. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London Series B-Bioloigcal Sciences,
1999. 266: p. 485-492.
115. Hagelberg, E., et al., Evidence for mitochondrial DNA recombination in a human population
of island Melanesia: correction. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London Series B-
Biological Sciences, 2000. 267(1452): p. 1595-1596.
116. Macaulay, V., M. Richards, and B. Sykes, Mitochondrial DNA recombination-no need to
panic. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London Series B-Bioloigcal Sciences, 1999. 266:
p. 2037-2039.
117. Jorde, L.B. and M. Bamshad, Questioning evidence for recombination in human
mitochondrial DNA. Science, 2000. 288: p. 1931.
118. Kivisild, T. and R. Villems, Questioning evidence for recombination in human mitochondrial
DNA. Science, 2000. 288(1931).
119. Kumar, S., et al., Questioning evidence for recombination in human mitochondrial DNA.
Science, 2000. 288: p. 1931.
120. Parsons, T.J. and J.A. Irwin, Questioning evidence for recombination in human mitochondrial
DNA. Science, 2000. 288: p. 1931.
121. Ingman, M., et al., Mitochondrial genome variation and the origin of modern humans. Nature,
2000. 408: p. 708-713.
122. Pesole, G., et al., Nucleotide substitution rate of mammalian mitochondrial genomes. J. Mol.
Evol., 1999. 48(4): p. 427-434.
123. Ballard, J.W.O., Comparative genomics of mitochondrial DNA in members of the Drosophila
melanogaster subgroup. J. Mol. Evol., 2000. 51(1): p. 48-63.
124. Yang, Z.H., et al., Condon-substitution models for heterogeneous selection pressure at amino
acid sites. Genetics, 2000. 155(1): p. 431-449.
125. Perna, N.T. and T.D. Kocher, Patterns of nucleotide composition at fourfold degenerate sites
of animal mitochondrial genomes. J. Mol. Evol., 1995. 41(3): p. 353-358.
126. Smith, G.R., Hotspots of homologous recombination. Experientia, 1994. 50(3): p. 234-241.
127. Guillon, H. and B. de Massy, An initiation site for meiotic crossingover and gene conversion
in the mouse. J. Immunol., 1998. 160: p. 266-272.
128. Kohli, A., Molecular characterization of transforming plasmid rearrangement in transgenic
rice reveals a recombination hotspot in the CaMV promoter and confirms the predominance
of microhomology mediated recombination. Plant J., 1999. 17(6): p. 591-601.
129. Jiang, R., et al., Genome-wide evaluation of the public SNP databases. Pharmacogenomics,
2003. 4(6): p. 779-789.
130. Stoneking, M., Single nucleotide polymorphisms: from the evolutionary past. Nature, 2001.
409: p. 821-822.
131. Chakravarti, A., et al., Nonuniform recombination within the human B-globin gene cluster.
Am. J. Hum. Genet., 1984. 36: p. 1239-1258.
132. Smith, R.A., et al., Recombination breakpoints in the human B-globin gene cluster. Blood,
1998. 92: p. 4415-4421.
133. Yip, S.P., et al., Mapping recombination hotspots in human phosphoglucomutase (PGM1).
Hum. Mol. Genet., 1999. 9: p. 1699-1706.
134. Templeton, A.R., et al., Recombinational and mutational hotspots within the human
lipoprotein lipase gene. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 2000. 66: p. 69-83.
135. Cullen, M., et al., Molecular mapping of a recombination hotspot located in teh second intron
of the human TAP2 locus. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 1995. 56: p. 1350-1358.
136. Cullen, M., et al., Characterization of recombination in the HLA class II region. Am. J. Hum.
Genet., 1997. 60: p. 397-407.
137. Gabriel, S.B., et al., The structure of haplotype blocks in the human genome. Science, 2002.
296(5576): p. 2225-9.
138. Daly, M.J., et al., High-resolution haplotype structure in the human genome. Nat. Genet.,
2001. 29(2): p. 229-32.
139. Phillips, M.S., et al., Chromosome-wide distribution of haplotype blocks and the role of
recombination hot spots. Nat. Genet., 2003. 33(3): p. 382-7.
140. Wall, J.D. and J.K. Pritchard, Haplotype blocks and linkage disequilibrium in the human
genome. Nat. Rev. Genet., 2003. 4(8): p. 587-97.
141. Jeffreys, A.J., et al., Meiotic recombination hot spots and human DNA diversity. Philos.
Trans. R. Soc. Lond. B Biol. Sci., 2004. 359(1441): p. 141-152.
142. Jeffreys, A.J., A. Ritchie, and R. Neumann, High resolution analysis of haplotype diversity
and meiotic crossover in the human TAP2 recombination hotspot. Hum. Mol. Genet., 2000.
9(5): p. 725-733.
143. Cullen, M., et al., High-resolution patterns of meiotic recombination across the human major
histocompatibility complex. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 2002. 71: p. 759-776
Just because you didn't know about it doesn't mean that it's a secret.
Now why don't I explain it here in simple layman's terms? Because it's easier for you to look it up yourself, read past the spin (some authors try to put an evolutionist spin on it, just like they do with genetics) and learn what it is. If I were to explain it, I fully expect those who know more about this topic than myself and pretended not to have this knowledge would come out of the woodwork & try to nitpick my explanation. I'd be tempted to call them liars, as the term is accurate and applicable. So I choose to avoid temptation.
Talk about poisoning the well!!!! Thankfully, you've provided another little gem on which we can base an opinion of your pronouncements
The bargain basement evolutionist will just repeat the spin or deny that recombination exists
Since you predict that evolutionists will deny it's existence and since I've demonstrated very easily that evolutionists are not denying it, can we assume that the rest of your post is as accurate?
As a warning to those who are beginning to lose the will to live, I intend to do the same for your claim that
About the only real mutations they ever talk about that actually mutations are irradiated bugs, and that's just not enough to sell their religion.
I wonder how many papers I'll be able to find? Bear in mind I'm a molecular biologist and a microbiologist who just happens to have extensive experience in Bacteriology!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by CTD, posted 02-04-2008 8:48 PM CTD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by CTD, posted 02-05-2008 7:26 PM Trixie has replied

  
teen4christ
Member (Idle past 5824 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 66 of 121 (454083)
02-05-2008 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by tesla
02-04-2008 6:49 PM


Re: Devolution?
tesla writes
quote:
how does chromosomes have anything to do with how evolution and adaption works?
Everything. Centromeres control cell division and gene expression, you know.
quote:
your trying to look at 2 objects of similar form then ask why they arnt identical?
Huh?
quote:
since when does chromosomes only add or subtract in evolution?
But in this particular case, the chromosomes didn't add or subtract.
Let me be overly simplistic to get us started. Every normal chromosome has a centromere in the center that controls gene expressions and cell division and two telomeres, one at each end, to prevent gene loss during cell division and DNA replication. If a chromosome is missing a telomere, everytime a cell divides it would lose some genes at the end of the chromosome that's missing the telomere. This would ultimately result in the partial, if not total, deletion of the chromosome and loads of genetic material. The telomeres also prevent the chromosomes from accidently fuse together.
In apes, there are 24 chromosome pairs, totalling in 48 chromosomes. Each one of these chromosomes has a centromere in the center and 2 telomeres, one at each end. What puzzled scientists back in the 80's and 90's is that even though humans are almost genetically identical to the apes we only have 23 pairs of chromosomes, totalling in 46 chromosomes. The hypothesis was that at some point in the past a telomere was deactivated resulting in the fusing of 2 chromosomes. This hypothesis was later confirmed by the discovery of 2 centromeres and 4 telomeres in chromosome #2 in humans. 1 of the centromeres is there but inactive. 2 of the telomeres are in the center of the chromosome and also inactive.
Do you understand the implication of this discovery? Centromeres and Telomeres are very much central to the issue.
quote:
it is just as logical that a chromosomes was lost, as a chromosome was added.
No, it is not. Each chromosome carries a rediculous number of genetic material programming for everything from hair color to the size of your feet to the number of your wisdom teeth and so on. Losing a pair of chromosome in such a short time period like 4 thousand years, or having a whole new pair of chromosome in that time, is unimaginable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by tesla, posted 02-04-2008 6:49 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by tesla, posted 02-05-2008 5:10 PM teen4christ has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 67 of 121 (454126)
02-05-2008 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by teen4christ
02-05-2008 2:14 PM


Re: Devolution?
In apes, there are 24 chromosome pairs, totalling in 48 chromosomes. Each one of these chromosomes has a centromere in the center and 2 telomeres, one at each end. What puzzled scientists back in the 80's and 90's is that even though humans are almost genetically identical to the apes we only have 23 pairs of chromosomes, totalling in 46 chromosomes. The hypothesis was that at some point in the past a telomere was deactivated resulting in the fusing of 2 chromosomes. This hypothesis was later confirmed by the discovery of 2 centromeres and 4 telomeres in chromosome #2 in humans. 1 of the centromeres is there but inactive. 2 of the telomeres are in the center of the chromosome and also inactive.
Do you understand the implication of this discovery? Centromeres and Telomeres are very much central to the issue.
i see the relevance now. but the question is still unanswered. proof that a centromere could become active, that was once inactive needs to be researched.
if a telomere that was inactive was to become active, it would replicate telomeres and genetic data by theory.
if ape and man is related, the common ancestor would be classified as what? man? or ape? because it would be neither, but an in between state in which it has active and inactive genetic data that could potentially go either way.
we already know that the current ape did not exist at the time that man did, with the data of stone tools and earlier forms of man. so what at those time, did the apes look like, during this period of evolution?
you cant look at the genetic data of Lucy, but you can potentially draw a "potential" DNA pattern by the composition of its bone structure, once enough is known about DNA patterns.
it would be a fools errand to take the literal DNA data of current apes, and use it to prove anything conclusive about early man and apes. because early man and apes, didn't look like that.
also, compare environments of those times, and of current times, its hard to look at past animals and put them in today's climates, because again, they existed in a different environment. potentially subject to different dangers of disease and storms and earthquakes or lava or oceans, or ocean life. what might look to be a useless trait today, was probably very necessary in the environments of yesterday.
on a final note: calling the early form of man , ape, is a silly as calling early dog a cat. IF both ape, and man, came from the same start, the start can be called man, or ape, depending on which tree you are following. i call the initial start, IF both are related, the start of man is man in an early form. and apes are the offspring of ignorance.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by teen4christ, posted 02-05-2008 2:14 PM teen4christ has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Coyote, posted 02-05-2008 8:12 PM tesla has replied

  
CTD
Member (Idle past 5894 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 68 of 121 (454171)
02-05-2008 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Trixie
02-05-2008 6:43 AM


Re: Enough Already
I notice you have trouble understanding the conjunction "or". Is English your first language? If so, I see little profit in discussing anything with you, as such misunderstandings rarely occur by accident. If not, please consult your dictionary. I'm sure your language has some equivalent for such a necessary element of communication.
I don't expect you'd understand the term "trade secret" either. I never said trained biologists would be kept in the dark. But the general public is never exposed to this information. It's kind of awkward to give a list of phony examples of "mutations" and then turn right around and expose oneself as a liar. Thus it must be omitted from school textbooks and PBS programs, etc.
And if you truly are so all-fired involved in biology, maybe you can explain to taz the chances of getting mutations to repeat. We all know he'd just argue with me. I declare that one caught me totally by surprise. If it were possible to die from embarrassment, I'd be concerned for him.
For the rest, here's a Spin Recognition Tip: If they try to redefine either "mutation" or "recombination" to make them synonymous, they're up to no good. Mutations are what happens when something goes wrong. Recombination is what happens by design. Tip number 2: It's not "random". You can't randomly mix up DNA and get... well you won't even get life, if you want the truth. It seems random because people haven't figured it all out. Any time they figure out a tiny element of what's going on, they write a paper or a book like those on the list. If it were random, that list wouldn't exist.
It starts to give us some perspective when we see the years of hard study by so many persons all trying to piece together a little fraction of the work God did in one day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Trixie, posted 02-05-2008 6:43 AM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Trixie, posted 02-06-2008 6:55 AM CTD has replied
 Message 82 by PaulK, posted 02-06-2008 7:41 AM CTD has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 69 of 121 (454182)
02-05-2008 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by tesla
02-05-2008 5:10 PM


Re: Devolution?
quote:
IF both ape, and man, came from the same start, the start can be called man, or ape, depending on which tree you are following. i call the initial start, IF both are related, the start of man is man in an early form.
That might work if the amount of change from the starting point is the same in each branch. That clearly is not the case. The most recent common ancestor, while neither man nor ape, is closer to what we today would call an ape.
quote:
and apes are the offspring of ignorance.
This does not make any sense. Explain?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by tesla, posted 02-05-2008 5:10 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by tesla, posted 02-05-2008 8:22 PM Coyote has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 70 of 121 (454187)
02-05-2008 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Coyote
02-05-2008 8:12 PM


Re: Devolution?
without having a full specimen to talk to, we cannot know which end product the creature is closer to. we don't know its abilities to reason.
apes the offspring of ignorance:
stupid begets stupid.
if the habit of the mind was to do little but eat, sexual activity, tree hanging an clowning, over time , with like minded mateing, the habits would only be enforced.
if the habit of agriculture, and higher thought, hunting, and greater work, was to be exercised, and like minded individuals mate, the complexity would become more enforced.
stupid+stupid+time=stupider
smart and smart and time = smarter.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Coyote, posted 02-05-2008 8:12 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Organicmachination, posted 02-05-2008 8:27 PM tesla has replied
 Message 72 by Coyote, posted 02-05-2008 8:31 PM tesla has not replied

  
Organicmachination
Member (Idle past 5735 days)
Posts: 105
From: Pullman, WA, USA
Joined: 12-30-2007


Message 71 of 121 (454189)
02-05-2008 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by tesla
02-05-2008 8:22 PM


Re: Devolution?
without having a full specimen to talk to, we cannot know which end product the creature is closer to
Yes we do, through the sciences of Genomics and Systematics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by tesla, posted 02-05-2008 8:22 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by tesla, posted 02-05-2008 8:31 PM Organicmachination has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 72 of 121 (454191)
02-05-2008 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by tesla
02-05-2008 8:22 PM


Re: Devolution?
quote:
without having a full specimen to talk to, we cannot know which end product the creature is closer to. we don't know its abilities to reason.
apes the offspring of ignorance:
stupid begets stupid.
if the habit of the mind was to do little but eat, sexual activity, tree hanging an clowning, over time , with like minded mateing, the habits would only be enforced.
if the habit of agriculture, and higher thought, hunting, and greater work, was to be exercised, and like minded individuals mate, the complexity would become more enforced.
stupid+stupid+time=stupider
smart and smart and time = smarter.
When I was studying evolution and related subjects in graduate school I never heard it put quite that way.
And for good reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by tesla, posted 02-05-2008 8:22 PM tesla has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 73 of 121 (454192)
02-05-2008 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Organicmachination
02-05-2008 8:27 PM


Re: Devolution?
Yes we do, through the sciences of Genomics and Systematics.
tentatively? or absolute?
explain further?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Organicmachination, posted 02-05-2008 8:27 PM Organicmachination has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Organicmachination, posted 02-05-2008 8:35 PM tesla has replied

  
Organicmachination
Member (Idle past 5735 days)
Posts: 105
From: Pullman, WA, USA
Joined: 12-30-2007


Message 74 of 121 (454193)
02-05-2008 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by tesla
02-05-2008 8:31 PM


Re: Devolution?
Of course, all of science is tentative, so Genomics and Systematics are, at the core of it, tentative sciences. However, their conclusions and predictions are so accurate the vast majority of the time, that we can build genetic infrastructures on top of them.
Genomics is the study of the genome, which is the study of DNA, which, through scientific methods, can give scientists accurate insights into the relatedness of species and individuals.
Systematics is a branch of Genomics that deals specifically with species interrelatedness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by tesla, posted 02-05-2008 8:31 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by tesla, posted 02-05-2008 8:39 PM Organicmachination has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 75 of 121 (454196)
02-05-2008 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Organicmachination
02-05-2008 8:35 PM


Re: Devolution?
then my only argument can be:
1: its still tentative. were missing variables.
and
2: without the DNA of the past, the DNA of the present can only be a guide to what the past DNA may have looked like, until those variables are worked out.
which means no conclusion. yet.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Organicmachination, posted 02-05-2008 8:35 PM Organicmachination has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Organicmachination, posted 02-05-2008 8:42 PM tesla has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024