Elitism and Nazism

It basically sounds like Darwinist interpretation of selection as "nature red in tooth and claw", in stead of my view of selection as "nature wet in penis and vagina", you have no case.regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

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in stead of my view of selection as "nature wet in penis and vagina", you have no case.

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Survival of the wettest? It appears you have become lost in the internet Syamsu and have posted your internet pornography contributions to the EvCforum...how else could one explain such an off topic bizarre reply?Do you have anything of substance to say or are you going to continue to troll?[This message has been edited by Mammuthus, 09-10-2003]

Hi, Syamsu!Though you were restricted to the Free For All forum, I see you've been posting to the Evolution forum recently. If you will agree to abide by administrator and moderator requests, even when they seem unreasonable to you, and to the letter and spirit of the Forum Guidelines, then I will lift the restriction.------------------

--	Percy
	EvC Forum Administrator

"Red in tooth and claw" selection focuses on struggle, as Darwinists do, "wet in penis and vagina" selection focuses on reproduction, as I do.regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

Well I just now violated your directive not to discuss comparitive selection vs my individual selection outside the free for all forum. I guess you should impose that restriction on others as well, otherwise it's not fair.I had no idea I was consigned to the free for all forum, I thought only the subject comparitive selection vs individual selection was, because the discussion was repetitive.regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

I haven't checked this out yet, but I think the
SS may have been anti-catholic rather than anti-christian.Ironic really.

Funny. I thought the Catholic Church supported Hitler...On an aside, I heard somewhere that Hitler was a YEC. Has anyone else heard that?

Hi, Syamsu, It is this attitude toward administrators and moderators that originally caused me to request that you restrict your participation here to the Free For All forum. The administrators and moderators have limited time to address issues that arise, and while there is certainly a willingness to explain our actions, there is insufficnet time to engage in the kind of extended explaining, explaining and re-explaining that accompanies most discussions with you.For this reason this is my last post to you on the matter. I asked if you agree to abide by moderator and administrator requests, even when they don't seem reasonable to you, and to follow the Forum Guidelines. If you agree then I lift the restriction. If you don't agree then I ask that you restrict your participation to the Free For All forum. And if you reply in some other way then I will suspend your posting privileges.------------------

--	Percy
	EvC Forum Administrator

Yes I will abide by the forum guidelines and admin requests.regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

Below an excerpt from the schoolbook for the Hitleryouth in the subchapter titled Charles Darwin. The nazi website from where I originally copied the text is down since some time already.( Official Handbook for Schooling the Hitler Youth, Handbuch fr die Schulungsarbeit in der Hitler Jugend Vom deutschen Volk und seinem Lebensraum Herausgeber: Fritz Brennecke Bearbeiter: Paul Gierlichs 1937 )From Chapter 3" Now under some circumstances these hereditary
carriers can undergo changes. They can become interchanged. They can
add to or subtract from their length. Several clusters of hereditary
carriers can remain in one cell. All these changes are enormously
important. They actually bring about externally visible changes which
are inheritable. In that way new races can appear. These changes,
which are called mutations (after the Latin word MVTATIO = change),
are not always a good thing for living beings. They often lead to
damaging transformations. Above all sexual power is often lost. Also,
externally stunted forms are frequent. In this case the process of
selection sets in. Only that which is of value in the struggle for
life remains permanent.We have seen therefore that the race is tied together
biologically, and to be sure by the hereditary carriers in the sex
cells. New biological characteristics, and therewith new races, can
arise only through material changes in these hereditary carriers. The
ordinary environmental influences cannot bring about such changes.
Only internal changes produce inheritable changes. Inheritance is in
the long run always victorious over environmental influences.All arguments and political demands which are founded
on the belief in the power of environment are therefore false and
weak.We have already said that many changes are damaging or
unfavourable. We know of some cases in which injuries to the germ
plasm have occurred. For example, injuries have come about because of
X-rays, the misuse of alcohol, sexual diseases. This knowledge comes
to us from experiments which have often meant the sacrifice of life
itself.It is important for us to remove those injuries we
know about from the heritage of our people."
---------------Also quite surprising for a book that is to convince students many of whom were christian, is that in chapter one the book explicitely undermines christian teaching.---------
from Chapter 1:
"The foundation of the National Socialist outlook on life is the
perception of the unlikeness of men. If, at first, we relate this
unlikeness solely to physical appearance, no one will wish to contest
it. For it is all too apparent that the red skin, the yellow, the
black, and the white are very different. Moreover, within the family
of white men all people are not the same. Every attentive observer can
recognise distinctions in physical size and shape. The colouring of
the eyes, the hair and the skin is also very different
But there are also distinctions among men with respect
to mental and spiritual traits. This becomes very clear to us whenever
different types of men converse about one and the same subject. To one
person, for example, work is a curse from heaven, a punishment of God,
and a burden to be avoided as much as possible. For another, on the
contrary, it is a necessity of life which first gives the human being
his true meaning. Again, for some, courage and loyalty are nothing but
great stupidities. They would rather be live cowards than dead heroes.
For others, however, courage and loyalty are the very marks by which
they treasure and value a man. For them a promise once made is
binding. They stick to it through good times and bad. They cannot live
without honour and prefer death to cowardice....." Now why do we find in Free Masonry, Marxism, and the
Christian church this mistaken teaching of the equality of all men?
All three are striving more or less for power over the whole earth.
therefore they must necessarily be international. They can never
acknowledge the human ties of race, community, or nation if they do
not wish to give up their own aims.In spite of this powerful opposition, however, the
race idea goes on gaining ground. The truth gradually prevails. We
need only think of the growing line up of states set for defence
against the destructive influence of the Jews. And also we need to
remember that the immigration laws of many states overseas do not let
Jews or other undesirables into the country.However, we will not stick to superficialities, but
try to acquire greater clarity regarding this question. For only then
can we understand rightly the fourth point of the program of the
National Socialist German Workers' Party. It states:Only those who are comrades of our folk can be citizens of the
state. Only those who are of German blood, irrespective of religious
belief, can be comrades of our folk. Consequently no Jews can be
comrades of our folk. "
---Below is an often repeated quote on creationist sites of Hitler, from the book Hitler's tabletalk, which consists of a diary of conversations he had with his clique. It's the one time I've read Hitler use the complete term Natural Selection in stead of just referring to selection. Interestingly he uses the term in direct opposition to Christianity, which makes me think that he specifically wanted to do those things that Christianity forbids. This seems to me a reverse reflection of Christianity, and not an independent point of view separate from Christianity.(Hitler's tafelgesprekken, 1980, p38)
(translated from Dutch version of Hitler's Tabletalk.)"10 october 1941, middayWar is returned to it's primitive form. The war of peoples against
peoples has been replaced by a different kind of war - a war for the
possession of big spaces. Originally war was nothing other then a
struggle for pastures. Presently war is nothing but a struggle for the
riches of nature. Thanks to an inherent law these riches belong to
those who conquers them.
The big movement of peoples began from the east. With us ebb sets in,
from west to east.
This is in agreement with the laws of nature. Through the struggle,
the elites are constantly renewed. The law of natural selection
justifies this never ending struggle by letting the strongest win.
Christianity is a rebellion against the law of nature, a protest
against nature. Reasoned logically to it's ultimate end, Christianity
would mean the systematic cultivation of human failure."regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

Here are just a few historical facts to combat Mammathus' mindless speculation that Christians aided in the Nazi persecution of Jews. (The only detail he offered in his defence was that Hitler was Catholic, which more accurately would be he was born Catholic. However I have already dealt with this misconception.1. In Sophia, Bulgaria the Nazis rounded up hundreds of Jews and had them imprisoned behind barbed wire enclosures near the train station. We can only try to imagine these Jews waiting to be shipped off to Auschwitz. Panic stricken, sobbing hysterically, questioning God, and maybe a few calmly waiting. I try to put myself in that crowd, standing there that evening waiting for the train to come to take me away to my death. Out of what may have been a dark and rainy night a figure emerged and made his way toward the Jews. A huge man, very tall, and wearing the mitter that Orthodox prelates wear on their heads, this man looked like a giant. His long white beard flowing down over his black robe; and his stride so great that his several hundred followers had to hustle to keep up. He approaches the barbed wire enclosure that is being guarded by SS men. The armed guards order him not to enter. Defiantly, the Metropolitan Kyril laughs, brushes aside their guns and enters the area where the Jews are awaiting their fate. The jews close in on him wondering what his purpose is. They see him raise his arms and in a loud voice with words that will change the fate of a nation he yells, "Where you go, I will go! Your people will be my people!" The frightened Jews become a mob that could overtake their capturers. They cheer on their new friend just as the Christians outside the barbed wire cheer on. People in the city see what is happening and come out also and voice their support for their Jewish brothers. The trains arrive and the SS guards so afraid of the potential danger wisely board alone.
Because of one man not one Bulgarian Jew died in a concentration camp.2. In Denmark when the Nazi's ordered that Jews display their ethnic identity by wearing an armband with the Star of David on it, something awesome happened. Knowing their fate if they would identify themselves as Jews, the Danish King a Christian man put on an armband with the Star of David on it and he walked among his people. When his people saw him identify himself with the Jews they too followed his example and all wore armbands. The people of Denmark (who are mostly Christian) let the Nazi's know that they were one with the Jewish people and that whatever atrocities the Nazis would commit against Jews, they would have to commit them against Christian too. Guess what happened? The Nazis backed off.
3. Hans Frank the Nazi leader of the occupied Poland was likely looking for a shred of legitimacy when he hinted repeatedly that an invitation to dinner from the archbishop would be well received. Acrhbishop Adam Stefan Sapieha an aristocrat and one of the most powerful people in the former Poland offered. The Archbishop sat opposite to the leader of the Occupied Poland at Sapieha formal dinner table. Dinner was served. Looking at his meal Frank glared at Archbishop Sapieha. Sapieha offered a response to the meal of black bread (made partly from acorns), jam (made from beets) and ersatz coffee, "This is the food that is made available from the food coupons given by the Nazis. Certainly I, an archbishop could not risk reprimand or arrest by dealing with the black market." A furious Frank never asked for an invitation again from the Archbishop's house.
(This is not directly to do with Jews. However Sapieha refused to cooperate with the Nazis because he was disgusted with their treatment of Jews. What Sapieha did took courage and it shows that many did stand up to tyranny).4. When the Nazis invaded Holland and began sending Jews to the death camps, the Dutch Catholic church protested. The Nazis ordered them to be silent. They refused and on July 26, 1942 priests throughout the country read a pastoral letter from their pulpits denouncing the Nazis. Furious the Nazis rounded up many Catholic Jews.5. Ever hear of Maximillian Kolbe? Deitrich Bonhoeffer? What about Hugh O'Flaherty? And Pius XII is credited with saving 800 000 lives through secret deals. These are only a few of the many stories.To conclude the Christians (some calling themselves Chirstians did of coarse) did not aide in the Holocaust. In fact they did more than anyone else to help. This is not revisionism but fact.

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Here are just a few historical facts to combat Mammathus' mindless speculation that Christians aided in the Nazi persecution of Jews. (The only detail he offered in his defence was that Hitler was Catholic, which more accurately would be he was born Catholic. However I have already dealt with this misconception.

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Sorry General...mindless would be to claim that the 3rd Reich rose to power because of natural selection and the thoery of evolution but nobody would be stupid enough to suggest that while claiming that christians played no part in nazi atrocities now would they? Having dealt with this so called misconception you have failed to deal with post 39 and post 44 which clearly show you are wrong.points 1-4 of your post merely demonstrate what is well known, there was resistance to the nazi's in Germany and elsewhere...ever here of the French resistance? That in a few cases the decent people managed to prevent Nazi policy (surprised you did not mention Oskar Schindler) does not absolve the christian role in the 3rd Reich and your pathetic attempt to push off that responsibility on others..for example in point 5 you point to Pope Pius XII as a hero when the guy was a potential war criminal.Amazon.comAnd the General uses a common tactic among people who wish to absolve there side of any responsibility...he claims the millions of Germans who supported the war were not "real christians" since after all the luftwaffe, SS, and regular army and navy could only have been populated by non-christians during WWII according to him...and my arguments are supposedly mindless...get real and get a clue.

I have to add that I find the propaganda put forward by "The Gneral" and Syamasu pretty disgusting. Using the Holocaust in what amounts to a "smear campaign" puts their own petty prejudices above the true horrors of the 3rd Reich.

Likewise I'm disgusted by the arrogant, intimidating and jocular attitude of evolutionists who have decided before looking at any evidence at all, that there is nothing much to the relationship between Darwinism and Nazism.regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

Now where did I put my kilt?