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Author Topic:   Can Chromosome Counts Change?
DNAunion
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 70 (75320)
12-27-2003 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by crashfrog
12-20-2003 7:50 PM


quote:
So, if I have two species which historically had the ability to interbreed, but through mutation they totally lose that ability, can I assume that a new kind has been created? That happens, you know.
Sure we know that, because competent authorities in the field have told us that: that's how we know.

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DNAunion
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 70 (75321)
12-27-2003 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by crashfrog
12-20-2003 7:50 PM


quote:
What about ring species? That's where you have a linear series of species where each species can interbreed with its neighboors but the first species in the series can't interbreed with the last.
Yes, we know that...because many competent authorities in the field have told us.
Or are you claiming that you yourself Crashfrog have done the experiments that actually demonstrate such?
[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-27-2003]

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DNAunion
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 70 (75323)
12-27-2003 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by crashfrog
12-21-2003 11:20 PM


quote:
As far as I'm concerned, DNA doesn't code for information - it codes for protiens...
Really? On what grounds do you make such a claim? What experiments have you yourself performed that showed that DNA codes for proteins? Gee, could you be relying upon competent authorities in the field for that fact?

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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 34 of 70 (75340)
12-27-2003 1:38 PM


Please take the issue of using competent authority to another thread. I don't want this issue drug into every thread that you participate in.
If I remember correctly, this thread is about chromosome count, speciation, and interbreeding.
------------------
AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

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Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 35 of 70 (77103)
01-08-2004 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by DNAunion
12-27-2003 12:21 PM


No. Relying on authority would be to say something
like 'Prof. Bloggs says speciation happens.'
What crashfrog is doing is referring to the accumulated,
properly recorded observations of the biological community.
When one refers to formalised results one is not relying on
authority ... otherwise no-one could say anything unless they
had seen it in person.

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Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 36 of 70 (77104)
01-08-2004 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by AdminAsgara
12-27-2003 1:38 PM


Sorry didn't see this before I posted the other comment!!

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blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 70 (77118)
01-08-2004 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
12-21-2003 5:48 AM


quote:
Do you not see the point? If you agree that chromosome counts can increase, then how can you not say that new genetic information has arisen?
How is having more chromsomes not an example of more information?
As usual, an argument about "information". In the strictest sense yes, as you have an increased quantity of information (like 2 copies of a book instead of one), but whether there is any novel information is something else (ie new protein families).
Of course, instead of using the term "information" it is probably better to use "fitness". So for example, triticale(n=21), a hybrid between rye (n=7) and wheat (n=14) in many environmental circumstances has a higher "fitness" compared to rye or wheat.
quote:
Isn't a mutation the creation of something new? Something that wasn't there before? Something that is completely novel to the population.
So if you can increase the chromosome count and you can mutate it, how do you conclude that there is nothing new?
That sounds like you're going off on a tangent. I thought we were talking about chromosome duplications/non-disjunction/fusion of genomes, etc not mutations
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 01-08-2004]

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agrav8r
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 70 (77240)
01-08-2004 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
12-21-2003 5:48 AM


learned anything new?

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agrav8r
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 70 (77241)
01-08-2004 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
12-21-2003 5:48 AM


learned anything new?

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agrav8r
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 70 (77242)
01-08-2004 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
12-21-2003 5:48 AM


learned anything new

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agrav8r
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 70 (77243)
01-08-2004 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
12-21-2003 5:48 AM


You seem to be of the opinion that a copy isn't new information. You need to disabuse yourself of this notion.
Your right, what could i have been thinking?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 42 of 70 (77246)
01-08-2004 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by blitz77
01-08-2004 7:47 AM


Twice as much
like 2 copies of a book instead of one
No, not like two copies of a book. A bit more like to coffee machines. You get twice as much of something. I'd have to do some digging to find a reference but there are cases where a duplicated gene makes a difference in the phenotype.
Of course, there are also places where duplication then allows a place for mutations to accumulate. Do you agree there is new information at that point?

Common sense isn't

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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 43 of 70 (77251)
01-08-2004 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by agrav8r
01-08-2004 9:29 PM


I think you proved his point, actually. Your second post was more aggravating than the first. It's like a second gene that provides a greater amount of a protein, thus changing a structure. The third even showed mutation which added no obvious function beyond further irritation, but might over time mutate further. A different deletion in the third post (such as the first letter) could have provided new function that did not previously exist.
How you like them apples?

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blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 70 (77256)
01-08-2004 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by NosyNed
01-08-2004 9:53 PM


Re: Twice as much
quote:
No, not like two copies of a book. A bit more like to coffee machines. You get twice as much of something. I'd have to do some digging to find a reference but there are cases where a duplicated gene makes a difference in the phenotype.
Doh.... that's from a difference in gene EXPRESSION. The protein produced is still the same, but the expression of the gene would be different. Yes, it may affect phenotype, as for example in plants where hexaploid, tetraploid plants, etc show different phenotypes to plants that are simply diploid, but as for novel information.... that is something else.
quote:
Of course, there are also places where duplication then allows a place for mutations to accumulate. Do you agree there is new information at that point?
If they mutate, they may produce different proteins. Thus you could say that the information is different. Where you and I may disagree is whether novel protein families could arise by mutations.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 45 of 70 (77263)
01-09-2004 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by blitz77
01-08-2004 11:34 PM


Novel
Where you and I may disagree is whether novel protein families could arise by mutations.
Why not? If the coding gene changes wouldn't a new protein result. What is a protein family?

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