Evolution of the Brain

Just a rider to the above. I realise that the month we had this galah, could well have led to the healing of his wing. But when we first had him, he showed absolutely no anxiety or distress at being handled by us. That is why we had assumed he had been in close contact with humans. Often, a wild bird, if injured and handled by a human, can die just at the stress of this event, not from the injury itself.In Australia we have the Lyre bird, which are extraordinary mimics - often causing farmers considerable irritation. They can mimic other birds, chain saws and so on. A park ranger who lived in a fairly isolated region had a favourite tape he would play over and over again of Handel's "Messiah". Not only did the Lyre bird community nearby pick it up, which would be considered typical, but he stated he found them singing it rondo. Although I was skeptical about this last statement, he insisted it was fact. Then we have Bower birds ...

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Lucy

KakarikiThank you for this information. I didn't have any resource to check this and it was so nice
that you provided material which would support, in some degree, what I had stated (albeit not entirely correct). Nothing is worse than sitting there with egg dripping down one's face - especially Grey Parrot egg.

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Lucy

Melatonin,Thank you for this information. Is it true that birds have a double voice-box? Obvioulsy it would be a scientic term. I studied linguists and for some reason this issue was raised, and the lecturer mentioned this. Sadly, again, I do not have a reference to this
statement. But, undoubtedly, on this site one or more of the experts could explain this
better if it is factual.

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Lucy

Limpid,I hope I didn't come across too formal! I am no eggspert but am a huge fan of birds. I remember seeing a documentary on that particular African Grey, and have been checking in on the website since. I'm sure my conure (in the avatar) uses words appropriately such as "rascal!" when he thinks I am misbehaving, i.e. denying him certain pleasures such as dining directly from the strawberry jam jar. And to be honest, I can't see any difference in intelligence level between him and my dog. But then again I might be a bit biased Kakariki

melatoninI would love to hear more about your African Grey (they are fascinating birds), but for this getting off topic. Thank you for the information, I vaguely remember reading about this a few years ago. If brain size is not necessarily indicative of intelligence, does this mean that birds utilise their brains more 'effectively'?
Have you seen Sir Richard Attenbourough's "Life of Birds"? This discusses tool use, etc.Kakariki

KakarikiI also would like to hear Melatonin's comments about his African Grey Parrot. I certainly,
waffled off the topic ..no doubt as I write, people are nodding off!Whilst the site is Evolution of the Brain, I think insights and information into other species cannot but contribute to the understanding of brain development.

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Lucy

KakarikiYou made a very valid point when you enquired about the size of the brain of a bird,
and whether it used its brain more effectively. This could have wider implications
for the study of the mammalian brain. Certainly, birds have a phenomenal memory
and are able to take in information at a fast rate, for example the Lyre bird of Australia.Also, it begs the question, what is intelligence?

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Lucy

Hmmm, my Grey, well it sort of was. Quite a strange story. We got him over 14 years ago as a 3 month old british-bred chick. I called him Floyd and fed him by hand (all sort of baby foods and egg feed). However, I had a child just over a year later, and he was a bit pushed out, he seems to have never really forgiven me for that. He's more my partner's bird than mine now, handling-wise. He has a tendency to be a bit noughty with me if I handle him, he used to sit of my shoulder and gently nibble my ear, I doubt I could trust him now (We actually think he is a she though from some of the behaviours he shows).He's quite intelligent, can be a moody little horror when he wants to (many grey's are, especially if he's tired) but is usually very sweet. He mimics anyone and everyone in the house. If the dog comes up the stairs (we have an upside-down house) he'll tell him, "sonny, get down" and/or "naughty boy". He says "goodbye and "night-night", usually at the appropriate times. He occassionally holds a conversation with himself, sometimes quite hard to figure what he's trying to say. He'll ask for a drink when he wants it, sometimes even a cup of tea (he also mimics others asking if another wants one by name, leads to a few laughs).He also plays his little games for attention - he'll go up to the top of the cage and he has all kinds of Bells and toys, he places his beak in the clasps and starts to sort of whine, it seems like he's feigning being stuck/injured or something. He plays a sort of hide and seek game we've taught him, he hides his head behind his bell and peeks around it shouting "I see". He'll also shout "come 'ere" if I'm on the other side of the room and say "what you doin'" when he hears something interesting going on he can't see.He loves music and sings/whistles along.

Unless you can somehow link a discussion of pet birds to the evolution of cognition, brain physiology, schizophrenia or other related issues, any further discussion in this vein will be considered off-topic.As usual, please take any comments on this post to the appropriate thread.

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Apologies for the topic drift...More on track then... what do you think it is that puts birds intelligence on a par with many larger brained mammals? I have read that hyperstriatum component of their brain is responsible for song learning and thought to be a big source of their intelligence. So is their intelligence mainly based on their memory abilty as Limpid says?Kakariki

Well I think the combination of the neostratium areas in birds, (which has been compared to the mammalian frontal cortex underlying working memory, reversal learning etc) and the hippocampal area (spatial memory) would go a long way to account for their apparent intelligence. There are studies showing that localised lesions of this area in birds does result in non-spatial and spatial memory deficits and that this area can be subdivided into more localised functional areas (like the human PFC)But they also have a neocortex homologue, the Wulst, so this could still play a part.As I study the human frontal cortex, I would expect this area to be very important for birds (if it is truly a PFC homologue), although not the complete story. But, of course, I'm much less than well-read on neuroscience outside of humans and primates.

What exactly is IQ, and do you subscribe to Gardener's theories?Also has there been discoveries of distinct differences between the female and male brain. I have been told that females are better at multi-tasking than males. That males, if highly intelligent, are more likely to have greater IQ's than women. If there is a difference between male and female brains, where would someone with Klienderfeldt's syndrome sit. In case I haven't spelt this correctly, a person with xxy chromosones. I know that the latter share certain physical characteristics, and potential for certain types of disorders, such as non-Hodgkinson's lymphoma. I also believe that this syndrome is genetic in origin. I have a friend with this syndrome and he tells me that normally the IQ is below average, but in his case he is definitely well above average.

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Lucy

IQ is just what 'intelligence' tests measure...It does seem to have some predictive validity in terms of success in modern life (educational and economic), it does have a correlation with brain size & structure, it does have a heritable component. However, environment also plays a major role.Gardner's ideas on multiple intelligences are useful as in they attempt to break the confines of what is deemed 'intelligent'. IQ tests measure a collection of skills that underlie academic success and, as this is important in modern life, is a predictor life success.The psychometric method is important in science but not a definitive measure of the individual. We know that there are differences in the performance of certain skills/tests within intelligence tests between males and females - females general show better memory and verbal skills; males better spatial and maths skills. But due to the pesky Y chromosome, more variation in IQ is found in males. IIRC, some studies show a small difference (except for that one study from denmark that suggested a large difference), others show no significant difference in average IQs between the sexes.We would expect variation in scores for most groups, even those with some form of pathology.ABE: thought you'd find this interesting Limpid...ForbiddenEdited by melatonin, : added link

Melatonin,What you have provided is very interesting. So intelligence is greatly related to environment (apart from the genetic component) - so to a degree is a survival skll - am I wrong? I mentioned before my IQ of 153, which undoubtedly helped in university studies, but has not led me to any "eureka" leaps. I grew up in an enironment of very "talented" people in varying fields - especially arts. My mother learnt languages easily - not only speaking in them but also reading philosophical treatis in the same language; so had an extremely good grasp of them. The other female members, involved in different arts, had excellent verbal skills. Unfortunately, except for my mother, they could be considered eccentric. It was a nightmare to live with, especially in public, and I developed strategies of coping with these at a very, very young age. This I think was a contributing factor to my IQ. Also, they had no tolerance if I didn't understand a "new" word, such as "codocil", at the age of 4 yrs; they forced me to look at the context in which it was raised. The menfolk were in fields of science. My uncle a brilliant astro-physicist, developed late onset bi-polar, it didn't effect his work in the least. One male cousin cannot read normal text, but only physics equations. His brother has an average IQ, but neither of these brothers have any social skills, are unaware of social bounderies in speaking with people, asking quite inappropriate questions, or making inappropriate observations. I suspect there is a mental disorder of some kind, or various kinds, running right through the family. Thus, from my experience, so-called high IQ is associated with a deficit in another area of the brain. Any comments?

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Lucy

IQ is heritable, something like 50% to 75% depending. So there is an environmental factor.The Y chromosome does lead to some interesting deficits in males. Males tend to suffer generally from more pathology than females. Autism (lacking theory of mind - poor social skills) is a male biased condition as a whole, although the more serious conditions show similar ratios. In autism we see individuals that have outstanding skills in certain domains, the savants (c.f. the film 'Rainman'; you can have high IQ with autistic disorders). There are also studies suggesting they are better skilled in certain visuo-spatial skills. People with bipolar disorder, OCD, and schizophrenia can also have very high IQ's.We know there is sexual dimoprhism in the brain, leading to the different skills noted earlier. From an evolutionary POV it does make sense, males as hunters with good spatial abilities, females as socially skilled.But, of course, there is overlap in these trends, not all males are spatially skilled, some will be better socially, and vice versa for females, it is just via group averages we see this. But from what you say, it suggests that you may have some genes running through your family that produce some interesting outcomes.So, you could say that very high IQ individuals tend to be less socially skilled. The idea of emotional intelligence aims to pick up the differences between the high IQ type individual and the socially intelligent individual. The 'computer geek' stereotype person would be archetypal low socially intelligent but high IQ individual.I'm not sure if there are studies on such things, but I guess we would expect there to be high activity in the more cognitive areas (e.g. dorso-lateral PFC) but less so in the more emotional areas (e.g. orbito-medial PFC - as social skills require emotional processes).Edited by melatonin, : No reason given.