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Author Topic:   Potential falsifications of the theory of evolution
RAZD
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Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 29 of 968 (297450)
03-22-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Peter
02-20-2002 7:58 AM


not quite ...
Finding remains TOO EARLY says that the whole evolutionary tree
is wrong.
Actually there are several instances where this has happened and caused a restructuring of the local evolutionary tree (ie just around the fossil) - what were assumed to be ancestors are essentially shown to be cousins.
Neanderthals as one example, but also see horse evolution
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/fhc/Stratmap1.htm
You'll have to hunt around the site a bit for a complete picture.
The fossil would have to be significantly out of sequence -- and it would need to bridge some significant transitional ("macro"evolutionary) event: say a fossil with a mammalian ear before therapsids.
Another thing that would falsify evolution would be a horizontal transfer of a significant feature from one species to another: say the appearance fully formed of an octopus type eye in a mammal (light sensors facing the light and fixed lens with focus accomplished by changing the whole eyeball shape -- without any transitional stages to turn the retina around or move the muscles from shaping the lens to shaping the eyeball.
Or a combination of mammal and octopus eye so that you can change the lens focal length and the shape of the eyeball and have telescopic vision.
These last two kind of things are what one should expect if ID were involved in species change btw.
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 32 of 968 (297751)
03-24-2006 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by MangyTiger
03-22-2006 11:16 PM


Differentiation part of Falsification
Those dad-burned white mice ...
Isn't this just pure speculation?
I don't think you can predict what sort of direction a design is going to go in ...
These are examples of the kinds of things, rather than the specific instances, and IF "intelligent design" were involved THEN it should involve elements common to designed items.
One of these is discontinuity (sudden appearance of whole new species) and one is cross-fertilization (features from one design jumping to another), and a third is combination (where two similar features are combined to provide a significantly enhanced feature, like telescopic vision).
These are also things that should NOT happen IF evolution were the ONLY answer.
This may seem to be trending this discussion off topic (into ID Problems and away from Evo Falsification), but I raise it as an instance of things that could differentiate between ID and Evo -- something that should occur if one were true and should NOT occur if the other were true.
This is a critical part of any good falsification test -- it differentiates between possible concepts.
IDets like to use computers as examples of designed items. Modern cars have both computers and GPS systems in them, neither of which "evolved" in the cars during development and both of which are still evident in individual units and are also found combined into still other designs (GPS phones, blackberries, etc). Rather these items appear fully developed into cars, jumping across design development paths. This is the way intelligent implementation of design operates, so if it (occurs\occurred} then "intelligent design" is a good explanation.
This is NOT the way evolution operates, so if it (occurs\occurred} then evolution is NOT the best explanation.
The failure of "intelligent design" is the {lack\failure\absence} of explanation for the lack of design elements. I consider this to be another falsification of the "intelligent design" concept.
Enjoy.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 03*24*2006 07:33 AM

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 41 of 968 (341389)
08-19-2006 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by crashfrog
05-19-2006 2:11 PM


Proteome Project
I suspect the mysteries of proteinomics will be surrendered within the next decade or so. It's really just a modelling problem.
If one is interested in this problem, one of the projects that is currently being addressed by the worldcommuniotygrid.org dispersed computations (like seti-at-home) is protene folding. If you use the UD agent you can see this folding process with a graphic representation that is kind of cool to watch. The BOINC agent doesn't have this graphic ability ()
See
World Community Grid - Research - Human Proteome Folding - Phase 2
(but also look at the other projects as well -- it's not just HIV and protene folding anymore, there is also a cancer project)
You can sign up for just the protene folding (phase 2) project once you join, particulars at HIV Cancer Diabetes MDA and more - Solve on your computer
Enjoy helping research while watching some of it in action.
Edited by RAZD, : update sig

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 42 of 968 (341398)
08-19-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Ephraim7
08-19-2006 12:10 PM


Re: Evolution vs. the Observations of Moses
welcome to the fray Herman\Ephraim7
The formating of your post suggests a large cut\copy and paste, although it is possibly from material of your own writing (as I suspect, if not it should be referenced and then discussed), or that you just composed it on notepad or the like (the line breaks are the problem).
Now, we reach the point of discussing the history of living organisms. When biology is taught to our students in public schools, what are they required to learn? It is the theory of evolution, and any and all other explanations are excluded. Secular science is dogmatic about trying to establish evolution as an undeniable fact, and is not interested in accepting or exploring other possibilities, no matter how plausible they may be.
Schools are not teaching the "history of living organisms" they are teaching the science of {evolution\biology} which is based on observation, theory, testing and refinement as is any science.
All scientific possibilities are included -- it not just a matter of possibly maybe being possible, but of being testable -- that is the fine line between science and rampant speculations.
Lets look deeper into evolution. The theory does not take the responsibility of stating how life originated.
Absolutely correct. Nor does it discuss {why} life originated or {what the purpose} of life is -- those are the philosophical\religious type questions that are not attempted in any science. Thus original life could have been created, could have been caused, or could have just happened, but it doesn't matter to the science of how species change over time (evolution).
It delegates that to the theory of the “Big Bang”, which states that all matter in the universe was somehow contained In a very small dense hot atom, molecule, or singularity, which exploded into all the elements and celestial bodies of the universe, about 16 billion years ago. Never mind what caused that to happen,
Absolutely false.
First off, the origin of life is delegated to the science of abiogenesis, which cares not an iota whether the "big bang" theory is correct or not.
Second, as noted above, science does not ask {why} something happened, and this is as true of abiogenesis as it is of physics in general and cosmic astrophysical theory in particular. What science is interested in is how it {happens\works} and then testing that {how} to see if it can be duplicated: if it can we move on to the next "how it {happens\works}" question, if it can't we drop back and try a different approach.
Repeatability and testability are the points that make science such a valuable tool in uncovering the {how} of things.
God showed Moses, on Mt. Sinai in 1598 BC, six
days from the ancient past which Moses would later write down (or
have written) in the book of Genesis.
Do you have a {testable\repeatable} way of verifying this assertion? Can you differentiate it from, say {Hindu Creation Documentation}?
Until you can there is no point in discussing the rest of your post, unless we agree that it is not science but philosophy and religion.
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 48 of 968 (341826)
08-20-2006 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by jimfgerard
08-19-2006 9:08 PM


some format basics
type [qs]quote boxes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quote boxes are easy
type [qs=Ephraim7]The difference between type A dying first ... [/qs] and it becomes:
Ephraim7 writes:
The difference between type A dying first ...
I trust you can pass this info on to Ephraim7.
Welcome to the fray.
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 50 of 968 (342153)
08-21-2006 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Aegist
08-21-2006 4:43 AM


Re: Falsification Principles of Evolution
Welcome to the fray
It is rather humorous that many of those incredulous creatortionista(1) assertions of what is missing from the visible facts (like the hopeful monster) are things that would actually falsify evolution.
Not to nitpick but (picks up nit)
7. Demonstrating that the Earth is not Billions of years old
Would not falsify evolution, just the theory of common descent from a common ancestor.
This would still allow change {in frequency of alleles} over time in species population.
We need to distinquish which {evolution} we are talking about to really answer this question properly.
Enjoy.
(1) - I use creatortionista as someone who intentionally misleads or continues to make available information that has been shown to be false

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 52 of 968 (342167)
08-21-2006 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Aegist
08-21-2006 8:42 PM


Re: Falsification Principles of Evolution
But you are combining two theories there, and this is what I see as part of the definition problem.
It's not so much "micro" versus "macro" as it is being careful to talk about the {science of evolution} and the {theory(ies) of evolution}
Common descent is a theory that is based on the logical conclusion of accumulations of {change\variation} over time, and even goes beyond "macro" evolution in that regard.
Both "micro" and "macro" evolution would still be true if there were 2 or 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 species at the start, but common descent would not.
And we don't have sufficient evidence to say one way or the other. We do have some evidence to indicate that early life or proto-life shared materials and methods (as some bacteria do today), so some of the common elements we see could have come from multiple sources -- common materials rather than common descent.
We also have the problem of dead-end records, places where the spotty fossil record is just to insufficient to show where some branches started (we can guess, but that isn't knowing) and often they also went dead before any DNA etc evidence could be obtained to verify that they are on the same genetic tree.
The likelyhood is that this is so, but it could also be otherwise ...
and evolution would still be true.
Until such time, breaking evolutionary theory up into smaller parts seems to be inciting the creationists to act as if they must be right because we keep changing the target...
I prefer to think of it as keeping the focus on the actual elements of the theory -- whether "descent with variation under natural selection" or "change in species over time" or "the change in frequency of alleles in a population" or (dictionary.com definition):
ev·o·lu·tion n.
3. Biology.
- a. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
And not being pulled off the topic by including abiogenesis or the big bang ... as creationists are wont to do.
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 59 of 968 (342528)
08-22-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Aegist
08-21-2006 10:49 PM


Re: Falsification Principles of Evolution
... but still feel like the core concept of Evolution is being lost if you remove the descent from a common ancestor.
It's not, but what it is removing is the concept of an ultimate single common ancestor, a unique foci if you will, for all life, as that is not necessary to evolution.
When you have speciation branching from one species into two species you have descent with modification, but also you do not have descent from a common ancestor -- you have descent from a common population of inter-related ancestors. You would be hard pressed to refine the data to the point where you could say {this individual} was THE common ancestor. You do have a change in the frequency of alleles in each daughter population that were in part inherited, some in common and some not, from the parent population.
The very point of evolutionary theory is : How do we explain the abundance in variety of life on Earth?
Descent with modification - change in species over time - change in the frequency in alleles within a population --- over time the variations that are successful increase and become more diversified until the available niches are filled, and the diversity reaches an equilibrium level (gains = losses) until the ecology shifts and a new equilibrium is sought.
... you are just observing what was known for long before Darwin was alive: offspring are different to their parents, and if you breed selectively you can facilitate the direction of that change. This was known intuitively for thousands of years, yet Darwin caused a revolution because he dared observe that it could apply to all life and explain everything.
Again, this is where I think the science of evolution is being confused with the theory of evolution.
The theory says that change happens over time, the science investigates how that change then makes predictions and uses other theories to explain the full diversity of life as we know it.
Common descent - Wikipedia
A group of organisms is said to have common descent if they have a common ancestor. In biology, the theory of universal common descent proposes that all organisms on Earth are descended from a common ancestor or ancestral gene pool.[1]
A theory of universal common descent based on evolutionary principles was proposed by Charles Darwin in his book The Origin of Species (1859), and later in The Descent of Man (1871). This theory is now generally accepted by biologists, and the last universal common ancestor (LUCA or LUA), that is, the most recent common ancestor of all currently living organisms, is believed to have appeared about 3.5 billion years ago (see: origin of life).
(yellow color for empHASis)
And the idea of common ancestry was not new to Darwin either - his father (among others - see link for more) had proposed this system for all mammals.
No, the 'revelation' was that there were more young produced than necessary, that there was the transmission of variations from generation to generation, and there was natural selection (survival of the fittest and reproduction of the chosen), and that this was sufficient to explain the diversity of life.
The common creatortionista strawman that dog will only evolve into dogs, that they will always be dogs ... is not changed by the theory of common descent any more than it is changed by the theory of change in species over time: they will always be dogs from now on (just that given time and opportunity they will become different species of dogs, then different genera of dogs, families, etc) --- but common descent is a result of change in species over time, and it's extrapolation into the past is a theory based on the theory (and evidence) of evolution's change in species over time.
I also have severe problems with "common ancestor" singular usage, as it has always been descent from a pool of genes, more of a "common genome", than from a single individual or couple. While we may understand this, it is not what the term conveys to the common individual. That however is a whole new topic.
The point remains that you can falsify descent from a common ancestor and still not falsify evolution -- the only difference is that you would need to explain the abiogenesis of two (or more) branches of life instead of one. We could for instance find life on mars, using all the same building blocks as life on earth, complete with the same DNA made up of the same 20 amino acids, but no genetic markers in common with earth life. If there are {chemical\physical} reasons for the choices in materials used in building life from activated chemicals, one would expect those reasons to apply in similar situations regardless of (heh) origins.
This could have occurred on the primordial earth as well as on another planet. When the two (or more) forms come into contact they can share, conquer or die. Personally I believe that, as eukaryotes came into being from the sharing of two prokaryote cells that the prokaryotes came into being from the sharing of more primitive forms of life. It seems illogical to me that the 'big experiment' only occurred once for all time, or that one pre-biotic replication system existed unchallenged for thousands of years before it reached the next level. That is my personal belief though, and would be another whole topic (discussed on some other threads).
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 326 of 968 (593819)
11-29-2010 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Taq
11-29-2010 4:24 PM


an example of macroevolution confirmed
Thanks Taq,
It has always seemed a little problematical to claim speciation in asexually reproducing species, but this is a convincing example not only of speciation, but of significant change between the parent population and the daughter population -- a macroevolution event confirmed (as the term is used in biology).
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 372 of 968 (600000)
01-11-2011 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by ICANT
01-11-2011 11:16 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
Hi ICANT, I'll try once again ...
Berkeley Evolution 101 writes:
What is macroevolution?
Macroevolution generally refers to evolution above the species level. So instead of focusing on an individual beetle species, a macroevolutionary lens might require that we zoom out on the tree of life, to assess the diversity of the entire beetle clade and its position on the tree. ...
You really need to read the whole paragraph. When you zoom out on a tree from a single branch to see the whole tree, do you see any process that does not occur in the single branch being used in the formation of the tree? No, what you see are multiple branching events, with each branch formed by the same process, and where the overall structure is made up of the formation of multiple branches. What is different is the time focus - the growth of a single branch starts in a single season, while the growth of the tree involves many many seasons.
Another way to look at it is to use the analogy of the snapshot vs movie film: we can look at the individual pictures of a movie as a series of snapshots, and we can note in detail the "micro" changes that occur from one snapshot frame to the next; then we can run the film through a projector and see how all the micro changes add up to the "macro" effects of all the little changes merged into a document of the motion captured by the film. Once again, the major difference is the time-scale used to look at the evidence: in the micro view we are looking at the frames one by one, slowly, and concentrating on the differences seen before moving on to the next frame, while in the macro view we are looking at the flow of the frames as they merge into the overall picture of motion that appears from the passage of the individual frames viewed for a brief moment, motion caused by the accumulation of the little changes from one frame to the next seen at a much faster scale of time.
It is not necessarily easy to "see" macroevolutionary history; there are no firsthand accounts to be read. Instead, we reconstruct the history of life using all available evidence: geology, fossils, and living organisms.
Personally I disagree with this opinion. This is a first hand account of macroevolution:
It is written in fossils: it shows the ongoing "micro" evolution, with the changes in hereditary traits in the breeding population/s from generation to generation in response to ecological opportunities, and it documents the overall "macro" evolution picture of increasing diversity, as branches form and become separated, different from the other branches by the long term accumulation of the ongoing "micro" evolution changes. Without "micro" evolution the "macro" evolution does not occur.
Enjoy.
btw - [size=1] makes the type smaller than normal and fixes it so that it doesn't adjust when you globally adjust the size of the fonts on a whole page.
Edited by RAZD, : p

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 397 of 968 (600098)
01-12-2011 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by Dawn Bertot
01-12-2011 10:23 AM


If not for Dawn Bertot, then for the other readers of this thread.
Hi Dawn Bertot,
There are several references on the web that would answer your questions about gorillas (common ancestor population for gorillas, humans and chimps before the common ancestor population for humans and chimps).
http://anthro.palomar.edu/earlyprimates/first_primates.htm
evolution of the first primates
quote:
About 9 million years ago, the descendants of the dryopithecines in Africa diverged into two lines--the gorillas and the line that would lead to humans and chimpanzees. Around 6 million years ago, another divergence occurred which separated the chimpanzees from the early hominids (human-like primates) that were our direct ancestors.
Note that these dates are tentative and await further evidence that will either confirm or alter there absolute locations, however the positions are relative -- if the common ancestor population for humans and chimps but not gorillas is found older than 9 million years, then the time for the common ancestor population for humans, chimps and gorillas would also be older.
http://www.andaman.org/Related%3F/Related.htm
quote:
One possible genealogical tree from cretaceous insectivores to modern Homo sapiens . Many points remain in dispute and for others the evidence is unclear or missing. The available evidence would also allow other trees to be constructed. (adapted from The Cambridge Encyclopaedia of Human Evolution, Cambridge 1992).
Humans have not descended from monkeys - but they have a common ancestor. The chart shows the chromosomal alterations that have ocurred during the evolution of Old World Simians (infraorder Catarrhini). Each dot represents an event inferred from a comparison of the karyotypes of living species. Within any branch, the sequence of dots is arbitrary. Emphasis is given to human and great apes, whose chromosomes have been more extensively studied than those of other primates. NOR = nuclear organisers. (adapted The Cambridge Encyclopaedia of Human Evolution, Cambridge 1992).
All other living species are just as evolved from the common ancestor population as we are, the only difference being the different ecological opportunities that were taken advantage of by the different descendant populations.
Then shouldnt the things that are not ancestors of chimps and man, Apes, gorrillas, whatever, have evolved into something nearly human?
Why?
Evolution is the change in hereditary traits in breeding populations from generation to generation in response to ecological opportunities. It is a response mechanism to changing conditions, using available mutations within each of the populations, filtered by individual success at survival and breeding.
There is no goal to become human or any other form. There may be a general trend for increased intelligence, but that would be due to it offering advantages for survival and breeding.
... into something nearly human?
Like chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, etc? Or something intelligent, like the porpoises and whales?
When we are able to communicate with these apes and other animals (via sign language etc) it is clear that the distinctions between them and humans is indeed small, with their intelligence and communication skills overlapping the boundaries of humans.
My earlier query was that it seemed strange that things that should have now been extinct, are not. Things that are closer to man, (these intermidiates as you call them) from your perspective some how went by the wayside
Take any population of breeding individuals and watch them over many generations. The oldest die, either a natural death or one caused by failure to survive some incident, and new ones are born, carrying the genes of the individuals that succeed in survival and reproduction. The new ones age, survive and reproduce according to their individual success, and eventually they too die a natural death or one caused by failure to survive some incident, ... and new ones are born .... and the cycle continues. At every generation the individuals of that generation are different from the individuals of the previous generation/s and from the one/s to follow. These differences may be small, but they can add up to substantial change, or they can oscillate around an average, and different traits can change more or less than other traits, depending on the opportunities for survival and breeding provided by the traits within the context of the ecology in which they live.
Here we see successive generations of an early primate common ancestor:
Every individual at every level is a member of a transitional species, and each individual lived and died, contributing their hereditary traits to the following generations according to their success at survival and breeding.
There is an overall trend from small at the bottom to larger at the top, but there is no point at which there is a sudden change from small to large - instead each population between the top and bottom is part of the transition from small to large.
We also see instances of opportunities for smaller populations to branch off of the main trend and evolve to be smaller, with Copelemur constutus being about the same size as the ancestor population of Pelycodus ralstoni, thus show both a population evolving to be larger and one evolving to be smaller, due to the different ecological opportunities that each breeding population inhabits rather than any directional or goal seeking process.
Mine is not an argument one way or the other, simply an observation, that it seems that atleast a few examples of those supposed intermidiates would have survived, since we have so many examples of monkey looking primates, if indeed that is what we are actually looking at in your examples, some form of something not quite monkey and not quite man.
I know thats not the right terminology, but you get the idea
I get the idea that you do not understand how evolution works. At all.
Recommended reading:
Evolution 101 - Understanding Evolution
An introduction to evolution - Understanding Evolution
The family tree - Understanding Evolution
Trees, not ladders - Understanding Evolution
I post these here not to debate, but so you can learn how the terms and science uses these concepts and understands them - to provide you with the common language used in the science of biology in general and evolution in particular.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 401 of 968 (600117)
01-12-2011 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by ICANT
01-12-2011 12:17 PM


Transmutation is still not part of evolution
Hi ICANT
Why?
Because you still don't get it.
In a thread in the past you proposed to do that and then did not carry through. Maybe you would like to do that and see how far you can go.
Context please? Are you thinking of Dogs will be Dogs will be ????
As I said there are too many of the limbs and branches missing.
It kinda looks like this:
(joke)
Except that all the known fossils fall into lineages predicted by the theory of common descent, and not pointing off into distant points as you have depicted.
People take the final life forms we see today and try to go backwards in time and connect them to one life form to prove evolution took place.
Science does not prove, it provides the best explanation for the observed evidence. The theory of common descent provides the best explanation for the sequence of fossils found in both time and location. No other theory explains those sequences. Special Creation would predict that this would not be the case, and as such it is invalidated by the evidence of sequential evolution, such as Pelycodus and Foraminifera.
Common descent also predicts that new fossils will be found along existing lineages, and this has been the case time and again, the most noteworthy being the predicted location and type of fossil found with Tiktaalik.
Then why not start with today and trace humans back to the original common ancestor above. Just remember there can be no gaps as when you get as far as you can go you are at a dead end.
As has been pointed out by others, this rank and vile creationist canard is a ridiculous false standard of proof, as even creationists cannot provide such a sequence for their personal ancestors back to Adam with no gaps, nor to any of their beloved kind back to the ark, and thus it amounts to special pleading, asking more from the opposition than you are capable of providing for your argument.
The fact remains that, while there are some missing pieces of information, there is also a plenitude of evidence that demonstrates that sequential evolution from common ancestor populations does in fact occur.
When was the theory of common descent extending back to a primal common ancestor population validated.
Every time a new fossil is found that does not invalidate it, and every time the theory predicts new evidence, and every time it explains the known evidence better than any other theory.
When was it invalidated that transmutation could not take place?
As I have been at some pains on another thread to show that a scientific concept is based first on evidence where specific instance/s show it has occurred, and that without such founding evidence it is just a fantasy "what-if" concept. This is the case with your transmutation - it has never been observed in any form in any location that I am aware of.
When was it validated that transmutation did take place?
If it was validated - if there was evidence that this indeed occurred - then this would be evidence that would invalidate parts of the theory of evolution, and this would be big news.
You guys love the word mutation but when trans is placed in front of it then transmutation is a dirty word.
It is a term from the age of alchemy, and in your usage it is more like a tired
science fiction concept from B-grade 1950's movies (giant ants etc). It is not a scientific term, or at least it is not used in biology in any way I am aware of.
Trans is across, on the other side, or beyond. So transmutation of a critter would be when that critter became a totally different critter.
And evidence of such changing form of an individual critter would invalidate the theory of the evolution of populations or organisms: evolution does not occur within individuals, but in the changes in hereditary traits past to succeeding generations from the parents resulting in the changes in the frequency of hereditary traits in breeding populations from generation to generation in response to ecological opportunities.
Again, it has never been observed in any form in any location that I am aware of.
Do you disagree that Berkeley states:
quote:
Macroevolution generally refers to evolution above the species level.
My definition is that 'Macro-Evolution' is evolution above the species level.
What I disagree with is your interpretation. Evolution above the species level is the divergence of sibling species after speciation, as they continue to evolve within their populations but respond to different ecologies, thus adding to the diversity of life. This is how the tree of life forms. That is all that "macro" evolution involves: there is no additional process needed to explain the evidence, there is nothing more needed than the continued formation of branches caused by speciation and the descent from common ancestor populations by the daughter populations as they evolve by "micro" evolution within their speicies populations.
It would not be like the 66 million year history where 330 different species of formafiera were produced that the final product was still a formafiera. Had a snail been produced as one of those species then that would be transmutation.
No matter what various branches may have evolved into, (a) it would forever still be a member of the foraminifera clade and (b) it would not be the same as any other existing species - they could have evolved into snail-like organisms, but (c) as fossils OTHER than foraminifera were not recorded in the study we don't know what they may have become. However we do know that they would not be snails, they would still be foraminifera. This would be like a marsupial evolving to be like a flying squirrel:
It may look like, and it may behave like, a flying squirrel but it is still just a marsupial and not a different sort of critter ... it has not transmutated into a flying squirrel, but evolved into a similar appearing marsupial.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by ICANT, posted 01-12-2011 12:17 PM ICANT has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 406 of 968 (600140)
01-12-2011 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by arachnophilia
01-12-2011 5:34 PM


Re: Bump for ICANT
Hi arachnophilia
RAZD already posted one above.
Two actually, see Message 397. One from the fossil morphological data and one from the genetic data.
Curiously, they agree.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by arachnophilia, posted 01-12-2011 5:34 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 439 of 968 (600299)
01-13-2011 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by shadow71
01-13-2011 7:21 PM


Hi shadow71, and welcome to the fray.
I find it very interesting that the theories are so much more complicated or complex than has been expounded by the evolutionist such as Jerry Coyne, Dawkins et al. Who arrogantly state Evolution is a fact. Perhaps there is more to evolution than what these guys are stating.
Please be careful that you are not conflating the process of evolution (the change in hereditary traits in breeding populations from generation to generation in response to ecological opportunities) with the theory of evolution (ToE). The ToE can somewhat simplistically be stated as: the process of evolution, particularly with the process of speciation (the differential evolution of subpopulations in different ecologies resulting in reproductive isolation of daughter populations), is sufficient to explain the diversity of life as we know it, from the world around us, to the fossil record.
Theories are never fact. Evidence is fact. The process of evolution has been observed and is indeed a fact. The theory of evolution has been validated (and it has not been invalidated), but it is not fact.
That is why I find Koonin's paper so interesting. Koonin is not a creationist.
There have been a number of molecular biologists that have voiced similar opinions. See "Sudden Origins" by Jeffery H Schwartz for another example of someone claiming that the ToE is in need of massive revision .... one can hardly wait for the creationist quote miners to have a field day, as this is the kind of "controversy" they like to feed on and regurgitate.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by shadow71, posted 01-13-2011 7:21 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by shadow71, posted 01-13-2011 8:42 PM RAZD has replied
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 485 of 968 (600502)
01-14-2011 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by shadow71
01-13-2011 8:42 PM


yawn
Hi again shadow71, please slow down and take a breath.
I never stated the theory of evolution was invalidated.
And I did not accuse you of doing so either, so I have to wonder what your beef is.
What I did accuse you of was confusing the process of evolution, which is a phenomenon that is observed every day (and thus EVOLUTION(the process) is a fact), with the theory of evolution. You complained about people claiming that evolution was a fact and then talked about the theory -- the evident implication being that you have confused process with theory. There are at least three ways the term evolution is used within biology - as a process, as a theory, and as a science - and it is important for one's own clarity of thought to keep these distinct.
The process of evolution is the change in frequency of hereditary traits in breeding populations from generation to generation in response to ecological opportunities.
The theory of evolution is that the process of evolution is sufficient to explain the diversity of life as we know it, from the world around us and from the evidence of archeology, paleontology, geology, molecular chemistry, genetic analysis, etc...
The science of evolution is the study of how the various mechanisms of evolution work within the biological world, through experiment and observation, and seeing how the theory applies to the known objective and empirical evidence, including the evaluation of new evidence and comparison of the results with the predictions of the theory.
Message 443: I merely stated the findings in a paper written by Eugene V. Koonin, chief investigator NCBI,NLM,NIH.
Please don't blame me for Mr. Koonin's findings and opinions.
Are you expecting us to debate Dr. Koonin's work against a blank slate? Clearly you seem to be enamored of his work, and to fail to support it after claiming that you find it compelling is rather ... somewhat ... disappointing? Perhaps you are not qualified (undereducated) to speak on this topic but present it because it reinforces some beliefs you have, but are honest enough to realize that you do not have the expertize to discuss it from a scientific basis (which is okay with me).
(ibid): You really should have an open mind to scientific criticisms of the theories when they are written by evolutionist scientists in the field.
Even when those evolutionist scientists are offering nothing more than their opinions?
What about you being open minded to the scientific criticisms of your chosen critic's concepts when written by scientists (the modifier evolutionist only being needed by creationists as true science is not biased by belief) in the field? Have you read Percy's link?
quote:
The Biological Big Bang is not so much wrong as it is unnecessary.
That kind of sums it up in a nutshell. We already have a web of life at the early stages from other sources, and we already have horizontal gene transfer between bacteria as a means of genetic exchange for single cellular life. These are not new, nor are they earth shaking revelations that shake the foundations of the science of evolution or rattle the walls of the ivory towers of the scientists that study evolution.
The theory of evolution does not fall into oblivion if there is more than one origin of life, for evolution occurs after that origin. One of the tasks of the science of evolution is to determine whether there was one common ancestor population or several.
Nor does the theory of common descent, that life is related to life by descent from common ancestor populations, fail if there is horizontal gene transfer that provides essentially the same contribution to descendants that sexual reproduction does in multicellular organisms. It just means that identifying the "mama" and "papa" may be a little more difficult, but that the process of changes in the frequency of hereditary traits in (gene exchanging) populations from generation to generation in response to ecological opportunities still occurs and is still subject to the trials and tribulations of survival, reproduction, drift, etc, within those ecologies.
(ibid again): Too many people on this site get nasty when the theories are challenged.
Oh boo hoo, your pet theory was challenged and you got nasty.
What I find interesting is his ideas for a new synthesis.
Why do you find it interesting?
quote:
"I will mention two candidates. The first one is the population-genetic theory of the evolution of genomic architecture according to which evolving complexity is a side product of non-adapataive evolutionalry processes occurring in small populations where the constraints of purifying selection are weak.
Can you tell me how to differentiate "purifying selection" from the natural selection towards relative stasis in a predominantly static ecology? This is observed, and is part of the punc-eek mechanisms as described by Gould and Eldredge. The small populations living outside the fringes of the main population ecology would have different ecological opportunities than the main populations, and thus more opportunity to select traits not necessarily adaptive for the main population, but which are suited to those fringe ecologies. This too is part of the punc-eek mechanisms as described by Gould and Eldredge. So either Koonin is not offering anything new or he is trying to pretend to reinvent the wheel by calling it something else.
quote:
The second area with a potential for major unification could be the study of universal patterns of evolultion such as the distribution of evolutionary rates of orthologous genes which is nearly the same in organisms from bacteria to mammals or the equally universal anticorrelatiion between the rate of evolution and the expression level of a gene."
Rates of evolution change. Stunning. I fail to see any cause for a new synthesis nor any reason to say that current theory is in any jeopardy.
Damiani wrote:
quote:
"The discoveries of many natural genetic engineering systems, the ability to choose the most effective solution, and the emergence of complex forms of consciousness at different levels confirm the importance of mind-action directed processss in biological evolution, as suggested by Alfred Russel Wallace. Although the main Darwinian principles will remain a crucial component of our understanding of evolution, a radical rethinking of the conceptual structure of the neo-Darwinian theory is needed."
"Corrections to chance fluctuations: Quantum mind in biological evolution?"
This again is his opinion. Opinion is not fact, nor is it able to alter facts in any known way, whether "mind-action directed" or not.
What will alter the theory of evolution is facts and objective empirical evidence of portions of evidence that the theory does not adequately explain -- that is how science works -- not by opinions.
This suggest to me that his work and the work of people such as Giuseppe Damiani and his work in Natural Genetic Engineering Systems are the future to find the nature of evolution.
This natural genetic engineering systems information is very interesting stuff.
That, of course, is your opinion, and you are welcome to it ... as long as you realize that opinions are strangely ineffective at altering reality, and that you shouldn't react with anger and nasty comments when it is criticized on the basis of facts and what the evidence shows.
An open mind considers the possibility of new concepts being valid, however a skeptical mind reacts with skepticism of concepts not supported by adequate empirical objective evidence to support the concept. There needs to be a balance between open-mindedness and skepticism.
Enjoy.
ps - as you seem relatively new here ...
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by shadow71, posted 01-13-2011 8:42 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by shadow71, posted 01-16-2011 8:50 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 515 by shadow71, posted 01-17-2011 1:20 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

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