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Author Topic:   Transitional fossils not proof of evolution?
pompuspom
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 223 (317261)
06-03-2006 4:23 PM


I have no faith..
There are no transitional fossils. Over the last few years I've thought..strange how there are no extinct species of ape? They've all been dug up and classified as human ancestors. All of them are human ancestors. To me now, evolutionary theory is infantile.
How did bats evolve? Where are the transitional fossils? Is there a bat with, say, shorter wings in the fossil record? I used to be a believer, (in evolution) but not any more. If you follow some illustrations through on how such animals evolved, it defies common sence. I am now reading Darwin's Black Box, by Michael J. Behe. The biochemical challence to evolution. I have gone over to the creationist camp, based on evidence, not faith. Just a few questions.. (unrelated). Can coal be carbon dated? It is carbon isn't it? And how does the carbon date work on carbon that is supposed to be 200 million'ish years old? What would happen to the carbon isotope after that many years?

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by AdminNosy, posted 06-03-2006 4:30 PM pompuspom has not replied
 Message 118 by DrJones*, posted 06-03-2006 4:35 PM pompuspom has not replied
 Message 120 by Damouse, posted 06-03-2006 4:55 PM pompuspom has not replied
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 06-03-2006 5:36 PM pompuspom has not replied
 Message 123 by Chiroptera, posted 06-03-2006 6:03 PM pompuspom has not replied
 Message 125 by Belfry, posted 06-03-2006 6:20 PM pompuspom has not replied
 Message 141 by RAZD, posted 06-04-2006 11:33 AM pompuspom has replied

  
pompuspom
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 223 (317508)
06-04-2006 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by NosyNed
06-03-2006 11:44 PM


Re: "Ape" ancestors
Hi, Pompuspom here again. I'll try to stay on topic in future. As an answer to the question, yes, I would believe in evolution if transitional types of bat fossils were found. I think that you are all starting off on a presumption that evolution is true. Sorry for not doing 'homework'. I am no expert on this matter, not a scientist, just someone with average IQ who thinks a lot about it. When I was out travelling in asia recently, I thought through the bat problem. A bat has wings formed by very long fingers, obviously. Now consider, what advantage is a slight elongation of the fingers in one mutated animal? if the membrane covered the fingers, would this aid in the animal's flight? thinking that it was perhaps a 'squirrel' with some skin-membrane used like modern flying squirrels. This finger extention mutation would have to be passed into the general 'squirrel' population, without being absorbed back into the population, not carrying on this mutation. We have to think then that gradual mutations of the finger extentions were possible over time, without breaking, after hitting a tree, because the flight was not good. I can't see it. The bats wings are perfect for flight. I'll read through your supplied links. I am not closed-mind on this whole subject, I am willing to be convinced.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by NosyNed, posted 06-03-2006 11:44 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by pompuspom, posted 06-04-2006 6:50 AM pompuspom has not replied
 Message 130 by arachnophilia, posted 06-04-2006 7:25 AM pompuspom has not replied

  
pompuspom
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 223 (317509)
06-04-2006 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by pompuspom
06-04-2006 6:43 AM


Re: "Ape" ancestors
Just one other thing. I'll come back to you when I've looked into the human ancestor stuff. My starting point is now as a non-beleiver, so I want to see good evidence of non-humans, which are not ideas based on a ape/monkey skull and a human skeleton found in the same location.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by pompuspom, posted 06-04-2006 6:43 AM pompuspom has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by arachnophilia, posted 06-04-2006 7:27 AM pompuspom has replied

  
pompuspom
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 223 (317525)
06-04-2006 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by arachnophilia
06-04-2006 7:27 AM


Oops
Oops, yes there seem to be a lot of extinct apes. 'Still not convinced about bats. (or human evolution) Perhaps bats wings are not perfect for flight, but they'r the best a mammal can do. I read about a bird fossil, long time ago now, which seemed to show a bony tail. This is convincing to me as a link-fossil. (about the only convincing thing I've ever found) Just a short bony tail.
Edited by pompuspom, : feel like it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by arachnophilia, posted 06-04-2006 7:27 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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pompuspom
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 223 (317530)
06-04-2006 8:10 AM


duh
I had a quick peek at one of these links supplied in reply to my statement that 'there are no link fossils'. There is a lot of text. One could spend a long time trying to find evidence on the net, and any material available to read. I'll do some more research, when I have time. All this material is based on a belief that evolution is true. I am absolutly convinced that it is not true. So convinced that I am open to any evidence to challenge my thought. I was in a natural-history museum in Germany recently, and there was the eohippus (forgive spelling) the ancestor of the horse. Hang on a minute, could you please supply me with evidence that this animal evolved into a horse? 'Don't just say it did'.
The bat wing, as far as I'm aware has a curvature, caused by the shape of the 'fingers'. The curvature is the shape which creates lift on a wing, similar to a goose wing.
The human evolution subject, in my previous existance as a beleiver, provided the strongest evidence for evolution, but recently I've seen monkeys from S.America with a rounded head shape.
Edited by pompuspom, : No reason given.
Edited by pompuspom, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by arachnophilia, posted 06-04-2006 9:08 AM pompuspom has not replied
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 Message 140 by RickJB, posted 06-04-2006 9:17 AM pompuspom has not replied

  
pompuspom
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 223 (317580)
06-04-2006 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by RAZD
06-04-2006 11:33 AM


hush
Ok, I'll shut up. I'm probably annoying the hell out of everybody, I'm going over to see about coal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by RAZD, posted 06-04-2006 11:33 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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pompuspom
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 223 (318255)
06-06-2006 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by RAZD
06-04-2006 11:33 AM


Re: homework is an attitude of the mind
Contradiction.
Being absolutely convinced that it is not true is NOT being open to evidence that it is true. You are either one or the other.
I disagree (to a certain extent) being absolutely convinced is due to a conclusion based on aquired exivence. At the moment I am absolutely convinced, but later I might not be, depending on the evidence. I have got the book 'the making of mankind' out of the library, again. I have read through this book and others many years ago. So although I'm a layman, I'm not as ignorant as you lot conclude. And just because I've visited a creationist website, dosn't mean that I am lacking in education (which I was told by an administrator here), it just means that I have an open mind to look at both sides of the argument. The things I said were designed to be provocative and no doubt sounded ignorant to you. I was using the word 'monkey' very loosly. I prefer to read books, when I can get them, rather than reading text on a computer screen. So I'm leaving this forum to try and reach my own conclusions on the matter. And incidently, some of those links that you provided me with were pathetic. And your condescending manners suck.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by RAZD, posted 06-04-2006 11:33 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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pompuspom
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 223 (327405)
06-29-2006 6:12 AM


I've changed my mind
I came to this forum as a creationist, but I've been away and done some research, and I've changed my mind. It seems that there is so much good evidence for human evolution. Also I didn't know nout about whale transitionals. I ordered a book from the library, 'the fossil trail' by Ian Tattersall. I am half way through it, and am looking at the A. boisei, and reading on 'talk-origens' the debate about Australopithecus being bi-pedal, and creationists trying to argue around it. But when presented with so much evidence, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck?
From a creationist viewpoint, there should be no transitional fossils, so there should be no H. Habilis or any other primative types of humans, or non-humans in existance. It is still hard for me to accept that Australo's evolved into a further stage of H. habilis, but I am determined to keep an open mind.
I'm not following the thread here I know, but just wanted to say that I'm back and sorry if I offended anyone when I was here before.
I'm still interested in the bat transitional issue.

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by RAZD, posted 06-29-2006 7:35 AM pompuspom has not replied
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