The "common creator" myth

Ekland, E.H. and Bartel, D.P., Nature, 382, 373-376 (1996), or Google up Jack Szostak's home page and wander around in his list of references. There's lots of pdfs of otherwise pay-per-view papers there.

There's no such thing as proof in science, but here's some evidence:In addition to the classic paper mentioned above, here's a more recent paper describing an RNA capable of synthesizing nucleotides (the building blocks of the RNA strand), and another paper describing an RNA that acts as a polymerase, efficiently and accurately copying another RNA strand.No protein or DNA needed. If brown bears and black bears are the same kind, then no.

This paper seems to be about "RNA-catalysed RNA polymerization using nucleoside triphosphates," not RNA being created in a laboratory.

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Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the French accent!)

What exactly do you envision by "creation of RNA in the laboratory"?Simply "making RNA" is very routine (actually quite trivial) in the lab - the trick is to get RNA to carry out the reactions to make more RNA, which is where the "RNA-catalyzed RNA polymerization" comes in - the catalytic RNA is catalyzing the production of other RNA.

Nonono I mean making RNA from some kind of prebiotic soup, making RNA from the basic building blocks of life. To make this RNA in the lab you need to have existing RNA. Has RNA been made in the lab that was not made from already existing RNA? Because that is how the FIRST RNA would have to come into existence. And I still would like an estimate on the probablity of this.

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Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the French accent!)

Yes. Both RNA and DNA are synthesized in the lab routinely from purely chemical reactions with no template.In fact, it is so routine that there are many companies that will be happy to make it for you - give them a credit card number and a sequence, and they'll send you a tube full of RNA or DNA with that sequence. Here's one such company - this site includes their pricing (RNA is more expensive than DNA) and at the bottom of the page there is a bit about the chemistry used.However, there has also been much work done regarding how surface chemistry may have occurred in the 'soup'. Here is one, recent, interesting journal article that provides some background on how RNA can form by chemical reactions, and how UV light can act as a selective force to drive RNA evolution. It may not be the best reference but the full text was available... Following the references at the end of the paper may be useful to you. Sorry, I can't give you one, I don't know that anyone could - simply not enough is known to put things into numbers.I'm not sure why you are so hung up on probabilities, though. If I said a one-in-a-billion chance, would you find that believable? What about one-in-a-trillion? The number of chemical conditions and reactions that have taken place in the long history of the Earth is so huge that it could easily "handle" enormously low probabilities.Also, when discussing the formation of a replicating molecule - it only has to happen once, since the rest of the molecules are a downstream result of the initial formation, and not independent.

This is totally off topic but I have to point out, Antonio Banderas (who voiced Puss in boots) is not french, the accent is spanish.TTFN,WKThis message has been edited by Wounded King, 08-20-2004 06:19 AM

thanks, correctedThis message has been edited by General Nazort, 08-20-2004 10:13 AM

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Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent!)

I'm sot quite sure, but it seems that RNA synthesis still requires the existence of previous molecules.from Page not available - NCBI Bookshelf So they can synthesize RNA but they need a catalyst to get it started?

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Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent!)

Where does it say that we can't produce an RNA polymerase? RNA polymerases are certainly simpler molecules, in general, than the RNA that they help clone, so I would be surprised if we couldn't.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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I'm sot quite sure, but it seems that RNA synthesis still requires the existence of previous molecules.

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from Page not available - NCBI Bookshelf

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What that site describes is how RNA synthesis occurs in cells NOW, not what the original RNA synthesis pathway was like. Abiogenesis is looking for a much simpler system that can be catalyzed by RNA itself. The pathway you linked to is the result of millions of years of evolution.

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So they can synthesize RNA but they need a catalyst to get it started?

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In the lab, synthetic RNA synthesis (as I understand it) does not require a catalyst. To reproducibly create a specific RNA sequence the nucleotides are added sequentially with steps in between to modify the hydroxyl groups on the ribose sugar moeties. For a random sequence this type of control is not needed, but a catalyst may be necessary for joining the nucleotides through a pyrophosphate linkage. Boiled down, RNA polymerization is simple but replicating a specific sequence is a little harder. However, once you have a random sequence that is capable of reliably replicating new sequence then that hurdle is passed.

Okay, I think I kind of understand. Where do they get the nucleotides?

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Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent!)