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Author Topic:   What is the evolutionary advantage to religion?
PerfectDeath
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 167 (173531)
01-03-2005 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by RAZD
01-03-2005 5:46 PM


Re: Cynical Attitude.
well i gess you just wraped up what most people are posting here... most cause there was some off topic stuff.
but ya i kinda agree with some of it... the only stuff i don't agree with is your lazyness to not type out everything all big and fancy like me >_>
but oh well shortcuts are easy and fast.
but fortunatly for you, i don't tear apart everything you say but then again thats how you get people to reply.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 122 of 167 (173547)
01-03-2005 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by PerfectDeath
01-03-2005 6:13 PM


Re: Cynical Attitude.
sorry, I had meant to use the {{general reply}} button to make it a generic comment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by PerfectDeath, posted 01-03-2005 6:13 PM PerfectDeath has replied

Replies to this message:
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PerfectDeath
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 167 (173566)
01-03-2005 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by RAZD
01-03-2005 7:30 PM


Re: Cynical Attitude.
don't worry i don't feel like doing annything else besides general stuff... unless i need to detaily explain stuff.
now we just wait for someone to come in and share their opinion... either that or this is finished and I RULE TEH WORLD >_<

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 124 of 167 (173705)
01-04-2005 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by RAZD
01-03-2005 1:30 PM


Re: General question about this topic
Oh, I dunno. I think we're mostly on topic in the majority of the posts.
I think he [Khomeini] would have found it different if he had used his position to, say, molest little boys and girls. As long as he wore the robes inside as well as out, he would find no opposition.
I'm not sure that would have been the case. However, in the event, Khomeini was nothing if not a very ascetic True Believer, so the problem never arose.
Oscillation about a nominal median? ... operating as something of a check and balance on each other over time (albeit, one that can easily be improved on).
So how does the continued benefit to species from the religious alliance get {realized\actuated}?
If I was a cynic I would say that there IS no species-level benefit currently - rather the opposite. The persistence of religion is more do to what you later posted (manipulation by the "cheaters"). OTOH, cynically speaking humans apparently don't like to think for themselves or take responsibility for their own actions/lives very much. Religion fills the gap by allowing people to let something else take on those tough issues.
From a evo-psych point of view, I'd speculate the persistence of religion has to do with a fundamental desire for relief of anxiety. In the modern world, we face a for-all-intents-and-purposes incomprehensibly complex social system. Coping with this complexity allows the unscrupulous (or even the well-intentioned scrupulous) to derive personal advantage. Consider that it is highly likely humans are genetically "programmed" gregarious and hierarchical (like all our closest relatives except perhaps the bonobo - which may likely be an anomaly whose environment allowed them to take a different path than the rest of the primates). It is fairly easy to substitute the high priest for the high male. We're programmed for obedience. If the high priest can relieve our anxiety, so much the better: we're programmed to seek this relief out.

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 Message 118 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2005 1:30 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 167 (173706)
01-04-2005 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by RAZD
01-01-2005 6:16 PM


Re: thanks (side topic first)
quote:
See Political and Social Science for more on this thinking. I had another site, but the link is no longer working .
Well it looked interesting at first but makes remarks about Marx that are simple errors of fact. This is on top of gross errors of projection, IMO. Pretty poor really.

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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 167 (173709)
01-04-2005 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by RAZD
01-03-2005 5:46 PM


Re: Cynical Attitude.
quote:
(2) Unscrupulous, self-interested people who are quite willing to put on the cloaks and public attitudes in order to get an easy ride off the rest of the people (who do all the hard work). These people do not even need to be genetically linked, as the willingness of people to be unscrupulous is well documented across the board, around the world, and from highest peak to deepest valley.
... that's if I was cynical.
Embrace your cynicism. As I mentioned way back, we do NOT have to look at religion as if it had to provide a benefit to the whole society. It can prevail within the society even if it benefits only a minority group, if that minority group have sufficient social authority to establish and maintain it.
Secondly, I think there is an instinct to "group think" one might say, or at least self-reflection based on feedback from your peers. Religion is one manifestation of this reinforcing cultural group identity, not the first or precursor or origin of such psychological modes IMO.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 128 by robinrohan, posted 01-05-2005 12:03 AM contracycle has replied

  
PerfectDeath
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 167 (173930)
01-04-2005 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by contracycle
01-04-2005 9:37 AM


Following.
people like to follow... mainly because we are cognitive misers... and because of that we almost cry out for a leader. we do not nessasaraly need a leader it's just our groups that we fourm are very strong (when their small) till that group loses it's common goal that holds it together... maybe that thriving for that goal is another peice in how religions are formed, because in most religions there is some payment/reward for your good deeds/efforts... maybe in "annotehr life" but it is none the less produces a goal.
just thought i'd add this... takes time to come up with these... don't really feel like doing a big wrap up, DO NOT STEAL THIS AND CLAIM IT FOR YOUR SELF YOU MOOCHERS >_<

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 167 (173934)
01-05-2005 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by contracycle
01-04-2005 9:37 AM


Re: Cynical Attitude.
contracyle writes:
Secondly, I think there is an instinct to "group think" one might say, or at least self-reflection based on feedback from your peers. Religion is one manifestation of this reinforcing cultural group identity, not the first or precursor or origin of such psychological modes IMO.
I really don't understand what religion has to do with "group think."
Religion is a personal matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by contracycle, posted 01-04-2005 9:37 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 130 of 167 (173976)
01-05-2005 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by robinrohan
01-05-2005 12:03 AM


GroupThink
Irving Janis did lots of work in the area of group communication. Janis defines Groupthink as a "a quick and easy way to refer to a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' strivings for unanimity override their motivation to realistically appraise alternative courses of action" (Janis 9). Janis further states that "Groupthink refers to a deterioration of mental efficiency, reality testing, and moral judgment that results from in-group pressures" (Janis 9). Groupthink can lead to bad judgments and decisions being made. It serves as a simple way to deal with difficult issues.
Christians are often guilty of groupthink because nobody wants to rock the proverbial boat. (Ark?) Those of us who believe that God answers prayer will say that group prayer is not the same as groupthink IF everyone is willing to surrender their right to be right....or popular!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-05-2005 02:09 AM

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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 167 (173985)
01-05-2005 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by robinrohan
01-05-2005 12:03 AM


Re: Cynical Attitude.
quote:
I really don't understand what religion has to do with "group think."
Religion is a personal matter.
Which religious groups do NOT proselytise?
I can think of the Jains and the Quakers any others? Both of them have specific doctrinal oppositions to proselytizing, and are the exceptions to the norm.
That simple observation of bvasic group dynamics aside, the fact of thre matter is I can still predict the religious leanings of a given individual to about 80% accuracy at least just by nkowing the group memberships of their parents at the time of birth. Think about it, its almost relenltlessly relibal, and in some societies would be near 100% predictability.
Religion is most definitely a group thought. It is most definitely a SOCIAL, not an individual, phenomenon. Religion is not and never can be an individual matter - it always a PUBLIC matter, because it is in fact politics by other (dishonest) means.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 132 of 167 (174044)
01-05-2005 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Quetzal
01-04-2005 9:13 AM


Re: General question about this topic
{{ooo new buttons ... with mousover change ... }}
sex usually works for me to reduce anxiety, (and maybe for the bonobos too?)
one wonders how close "religious experience" is to sexual physionomic response ...
ps -- thought you would like the "cynic" post
This message has been edited by RAZD, 01-05-2005 09:49 AM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Quetzal, posted 01-04-2005 9:13 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 133 of 167 (174057)
01-05-2005 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by contracycle
01-04-2005 9:20 AM


Re: thanks (side topic first)
contracycle writes:
it looked interesting at first but makes remarks about Marx that are simple errors of fact.
yes but that does not invalidate the first part eh?
The engine by which mystical ideation becomes cultural doctrine includes three primary components: insanity, evil, and feebleness of mind. The insanity is embodied principally by schizophrenics, though also by individuals with certain other types of brain disease. The evil is embodied by the power lusting second hander. The feebleness of mind is embodied by ordinary people, of ordinary mental fortitude and ordinary susceptibility to memetic infection. By mental fortitude, I mean capacity to maintain rational consistency, particularly when presented with a concerted effort to befuddle.
Sound pretty on target to me ...
btw - there is a lot more to it, I think it suffers from excess when a little effort at conciseness would improve the argument considerably.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 01-05-2005 10:23 AM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 134 of 167 (174061)
01-05-2005 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by robinrohan
01-05-2005 12:03 AM


Re: Cynical Attitude.
adding to what Phatboy said, churches are institutions that foster groupthink mentality.
faith is a personal issue, being involved in a {church\temple\shrine\etc} is being involved in a group where certain {behavior\thought} modes are required for participation.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by robinrohan, posted 01-05-2005 12:03 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 135 of 167 (174069)
01-05-2005 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
01-05-2005 4:04 AM


Re: GroupThink
Thanks Phatboy: it is always good to go back to first principles when discussing concepts. the concept of "groupthink" is getting a little muddied by current media (cia groupthink bringing it into play again)
Janis further states that "Groupthink refers to a deterioration of mental efficiency, reality testing, and moral judgment that results from in-group pressures"
This part is key to the concept imho. We also used to refer to "mob behavior" before the concept of "groupthink" came along ...
Groupthink can lead to bad judgments and decisions being made. It serves as a simple way to deal with difficult issues.
{{hmmm ... thinks about certain party conventions and rallys .... }}
This message has been edited by RAZD, 01-05-2005 10:30 AM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 136 of 167 (174074)
01-05-2005 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by RAZD
01-05-2005 9:48 AM


sex usually works for me to reduce anxiety, (and maybe for the bonobos too?)
Hee hee. That's EXACTLY the glue that holds bonobo society together. They use sexual encounters as the primary social interaction. The most sexually oriented species on the planet, bar none. Also the least aggressive primate. Hmmm, wonder if there's a correlation there?
ps -- thought you would like the "cynic" post
Indeed.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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