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Author Topic:   Discussion on Creation article...
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 76 of 95 (340440)
08-16-2006 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by mr_matrix
08-15-2006 5:57 PM


Just watch how many coming replies will focus on the disease and bad design rather than my previous two posts that still did not see a strong "scientific" reply, and how many will reply to insignificant scentence fragments and pretend to be tough... Typical straw man arguments!!!
Perhaps in the future you could clearly mark in your posts which of your arguments are straw men that are not deserving of a reply, and which you consider to be genuine arguments which you wish us to debate.
Let's see if I've got this right as of now: your claim that there is no bad design in nature is a straw man, and we shouldn't reply to it; your argument about avian lungs isn't and we should.
By the way, how can a claim which you've actually made be considered a straw man? Except by the magical power of wishful thinking?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1491 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 77 of 95 (340442)
08-16-2006 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Nighttrain
08-16-2006 12:05 AM


Re: mr_matrix STILL manages more mangled misinformation misrepresentations
Great line, Razd. Mind if I use it?
Not at all. This is (to me) the core issue for creationists to explain.
You can find evidence for practically any position you want to take (say a flat earth at the center of the universe, for example), so the issue is really what evidence against such a position needs to be denied to maintain that position.
The "younge earth" is a prime example of a position that requires massive denial of evidence from so many different fields.
Enjoy.

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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6440 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 78 of 95 (340548)
08-16-2006 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
08-15-2006 11:29 PM


Re: Bad design is a myth
I know that Ford, Chysler, et al. are trying to screw us out of every cent they can, but how can you apply that to "The Designer"? I mean, what would he/she/it have to gain by us wearing out "prematurely"?
Maybe we (or the Earth generally) is an experiment to see how long it takes to evolve a species that can fix the design flaws, or what novel methods we come up with (surgery, drugs, genetic engineering, who know what else). Or maybe he/she/it is just a major league sadist who is enjoying watching life on earth suffer.
My other excuse for taking the customer's viewpoint is that it's the only viewpoint we have. If we don't know the designer's intentions, we have only our own expectations to go by.
I kind of agree but it does mean - to me at least - that all our discussions about good vs. bad design are reduced to nothing more than speculations. Mind you, were they ever anything more than that anyway?
(By the way, wouldn't mange be an example of bad design?)
Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps Earth is a biological warfare experiment by an alien race who are attempting to produce a weapon against their intergalactic enemy - a species with luxuriant fur resembling dog hair. In this case the mites responsible for mange would be an example of good design
Like I say, without knowing the desired outcome we have no valid criteria for judging whether a design is good or bad.

Oops! Wrong Planet

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nator
Member (Idle past 2256 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 79 of 95 (340601)
08-16-2006 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mr_matrix
07-04-2006 2:34 PM


Re: More Fantasies!
If an intelligent designer designed humans, then why do we have:
crossover air and food pipes that make us very prone to choking
very vulnerable, relatively weak knee joints that are quite easily damaged
spines that are weak and very easily damaged simply by twisting the wrong way
a sharp ridge on the inside of our skulls that causes severe brain trauma from not-that-hard of a blow to the head
a blind spot in our visual field
a propensity to develop hernias?

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nator
Member (Idle past 2256 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 80 of 95 (340612)
08-16-2006 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by BobAliceEve
07-19-2006 6:47 AM


Re: what evidence for design
quote:
And, a funny porn movie is still a porn movie and your statement that "actually it is a comedy" is proof that you were demeaning.
I didn't know that Alan Alda did porn.

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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6440 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 81 of 95 (340647)
08-16-2006 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by nator
08-16-2006 7:01 PM


Re: what evidence for design
quote:
And, a funny porn movie is still a porn movie and your statement that "actually it is a comedy" is proof that you were demeaning.
I didn't know that Alan Alda did porn.
I actually started a thread where BobAliceEve could argue this point but they never showed up (personally I think the four Oscar nominations scared them off ).
By the way - Alan Alda isn't in it according to IMDB

Oops! Wrong Planet

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Clark
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 95 (340689)
08-16-2006 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Quetzal
08-15-2006 7:03 PM


PZ Myers had a post on this subject today.
Page not found | ScienceBlogs
Recent studies of non-avian theropod dinosaurs have documented several features once thought solely to characterize living birds, including the presence of feather-like integumentary specializations, rapid, avian-like growth rates, 28, and even bird-like behaviours captured in the fossil record. Either implicitly or explicitly, these studies have linked anatomical, physiological or behavioural inferences with an increased metabolic potential, suggesting that if not bird-like in metabolism, theropods were at least 'more similar' to birds than to reptiles. Our study indicates that basal neotheropods possessed the anatomical potential for flow-through ventilation of the pulmonary system, emphasizing the early evolution of respiratory adaptations that are consistent with elevated metabolic rates in predatory dinosaurs.

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Replies to this message:
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BobAliceEve
Member (Idle past 5481 days)
Posts: 107
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Joined: 02-03-2004


Message 83 of 95 (340734)
08-17-2006 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by MangyTiger
08-16-2006 8:23 PM


Re: what evidence for design
Sorry folks, a big new garden and yard has sucked me in. I have a couple projects to finish up (before the rain starts for 10 months) followed by a short vacation. I would guess early September.
The rating by the movie industry of R and the review's point that it is about sexual relationships makes it porn (designed to be sexually stimulating according to the dictionary).
Oscars? Wow, I really missed that; I guess by not showing up!!
Very best regards,
BAE

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5958 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 84 of 95 (340802)
08-17-2006 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Clark
08-16-2006 11:26 PM


Excellent. Thanks for the link Clark. Always nice to realize I'm not just talking out my fundament...
Now if only Mr. Matrix would return. Think we scared him away?

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nator
Member (Idle past 2256 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 85 of 95 (340879)
08-17-2006 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by BobAliceEve
08-17-2006 5:32 AM


Re: what evidence for design
quote:
The rating by the movie industry of R and the review's point that it is about sexual relationships makes it porn
>
Oh, for goodness sake, it is not porn.
By your definition, this is porn:
and this:
Edited by AdminJar, : OffTopic reminder

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Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 86 of 95 (340892)
08-17-2006 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mr_matrix
07-04-2006 2:34 PM


Flying snakes
Mr_Matrix writes:
Flight is a complex process that requires the perfectly designed and well coordinated sophisticated systems that involve special repiratory system with avian lungs, special circulatory system fit for flight, perfectly designed feathers, hollow bones, fully develped wings, and high metabolism other wise any of these systems missing the bird cannot fly and will be eliminated.
Have you ever heard of Chrysopelea? They are also called flying snakes. They glide through the air by making their bodies flat. They have no avian lungs, no perfectly designed feathers, no wings. In fact, they have no limbs at all. They're snakes, remember?
And yet they fly. Well, sort of. They don't nearly fly as well as birds do, and compared to a humming bird, I guess you could say they fly only slightly better than a brick. Yet, by your logic, they should not exist.
Well, they do and they thrive. They falsify your theory that flight must be perfect or else it won't work at all.
Edited by Parasomnium, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5119 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 87 of 95 (340894)
08-17-2006 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Parasomnium
08-17-2006 6:32 PM


Re: Flying snakes
Yet when I asked Richard Lewontin who mentioned the flat nature of sea snake tails in the "Dialectical Biologist" how it got it's spots he only had had the thought (dynamically) about how fish got their tails. He had not considered snake flatening in general (which is something any one who looks at corn snakes vs blue racers for instance would have already noticed) NOR tried to make a guess about possible relations to the formation of snake rattles which also "flatten" the tail end rather than simply in th emiddle.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 90 by Nighttrain, posted 08-17-2006 10:57 PM Brad McFall has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 88 of 95 (340896)
08-17-2006 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Brad McFall
08-17-2006 6:36 PM


Re: Flying snakes
Corn snakes? You mean, put them in a bowl, add milk, and munch away? Oh wait...
Anyway, snakes trigger you, don't they? But what's your point in relation to the topic?

This message is a reply to:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5119 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 89 of 95 (340898)
08-17-2006 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Parasomnium
08-17-2006 6:42 PM


Re: Flying snakes
There is some more sophisticated system"" of form-making in reptiles that is not being considered by evolutonists in general and even by herpetologists in particular. I thought that this formation of gradable information would be available to a dissector of the colubridae should formerly thought non adaptive characters, such as scale location topological junctions be, be cooridinated with muscle group divisions but even the herpetologist who started one of the two only internationall all herpetological associations could not strech his imagination this far. Lewontin had used this as an example where his coupled differntial equations might apply.
Subsequently all that occurred was that niche construction may apply there. The shape of this contribution is far from a correct human design and I suspect that perfect Gibbs thermo evalutations of the continuum that reproduction of these forms produces is too coincident for the evos in general to have given the snakes the correct yard of a measure.
Instead Gould has insisted (see Wose dissusion and temporal extant of the current discussion is an extent to the mid 60s not the late 90s that is acutally operative in today's evc terms)
quote:
The Structure of Evolutionary Theory SJ GOULD Harvard Press
The fact that I am off the middle does not mean that the shift is the bad move Gould implies. Simple language would belie otherwise but readers are unaware oftentimes.
see also
evc link
Perfectness as arithmetically seperable occurs where an Gibbs/Gladyshev minimization is tolerated within the adaptive hardening of a shifting balance during biological form-making and translation in space. This appears to have been the reason that evolutionists have in post-modern times challengend creationists to accept organic designs that ARE malformations inherently.
Edited by Brad McFall, : op.cit.

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4080 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 90 of 95 (340962)
08-17-2006 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Brad McFall
08-17-2006 6:36 PM


Re: Flying snakes
Yet when I asked Richard Lewontin who mentioned the flat nature of sea snake tails in the "Dialectical Biologist" how it got it's spots he only had had the thought (dynamically) about how fish got their tails
Hi, Brad. One subject I`ve never heard resolved is the belief of camouflage, especially in a marine environment. Marine biologists speak of the development of spots, stripes, change of colour, appendages, etc. as an survival mechanism to blend in with their surroundings. And they do. Yet we have many marine species, usually sedentary or reef-dwellers, that are extremely noticeable due to patterning or clash of colours. Sort of goes against the idea of hiding from predators. Any thoughts?

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Replies to this message:
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