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Author Topic:   The First Questions In The Bible
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 76 of 161 (417805)
08-24-2007 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Bailey
08-24-2007 5:28 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
I'll try and answer both posts in this one.
Spiritual death is not printed in the story anywhere literally, yet, the story itself hints at spiritual death to me completely.
And you see that hint in what verse?
Why would the Tree of Life be the very reason Elohim becomes concerned and restricts access to the Garden? I don’t understand.
Well the story explains that.
=Genesis 322 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Since man had become more like God, God feared he would also eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal, live forever.
The story is a "Just So Story" and the issues are basically meant to explain life, why we die, why we seem to know good from evil and actually worry about it unlike many of the other animals, why we have to work at growing crops instead of simply foraging, why childbirth seems more painful for humans than for the other animals, why we fear snakes and why snakes don't have legs.
God's behavior is a plot device for the author to explain the world.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 5:28 PM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 7:49 PM jar has replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4369 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 77 of 161 (417821)
08-24-2007 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
08-24-2007 5:04 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
you run away from the fact that God Himself acknowledged that Adam and Eve had become more like Him, not less.
I firmly support Elohim said this.
It would seem the idea of someone who did not now the difference between good and evil living forever concerned God. Apparently this notion didn't correspond with His wisdom of good. Adam and Eve still differ from Him.
In Elohim’s wisdom He knows what is good. Elohim establishes boundaries by His wisdom of good. Adam and Eve began to learn the differentiation between good and evil. This makes them more like God, yet very different, as Elohim is not in this process of differentiation from the text...
Debate in good faith. Address the issue or drop your claims about "removing ourselves".
The tree of knowledge offered the process of differentiation between good and evil for one”s self. A separation or removal from God's wisdom to one's own. In other words, Adam and Eve had a choice of immortality with God’s advice or the process of differentiation between good and evil for one's self without immortality.
It would seem Elohim cannot go through the process of differentiation between good and evil for one”s self. Elohim's omnipotence lends to the notion that He is not in any process of differentiation. His wisdom of good suggests He already has...
Adam gave life to death and the process of differentiation of knowledge of good and evil for one's self through deception. Eve gave Adam the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but she did not tell him what it was. If she did he wouldn't have eaten it. Adam had God's advice (the wisdom of good), but his crystal ball was broken.
Separation ensued.
Edited by Bailey, : i missed you ringo

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 08-24-2007 5:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 08-24-2007 7:44 PM Bailey has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 78 of 161 (417822)
08-24-2007 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Bailey
08-24-2007 7:30 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
Bailey writes:
The tree of knowledge offered the process of differentiation between good and evil for one”s self.
Where do you get that from the text? What does self have to do with it?
Elohim's omnipotence lends to the notion that He is not in any process of differentiation.
There is nothing in the story about any "process of differentiation". It's about the ability to differentiate good and evil. Adam and Eve obtained the ability immediately when they ate the fruit. There was no "process".
Eve gave Adam the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but she did not tell him what it was. If she did he wouldn't have eaten it.
Empty speculation. In Bible Study, kindly stick to what the Bible says. Don't make it up as you go along.
(By the way, why do you keep calling God "Elohim"?)

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 7:30 PM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 8:53 PM ringo has replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4369 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 79 of 161 (417823)
08-24-2007 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by jar
08-24-2007 6:02 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
Bailey writes:
Spiritual death is not printed in the story anywhere literally, yet, the story itself hints at spiritual death to me completely. It could be compared to a parable of sorts. Elohim often conveyed insight through parable, even though they confused many people. Seems correlative here.
the jarmeister writes:
And you see that hint in what verse?
You don't usually typically see the inference literally in a parable (much less a verse). That's what makes it a parable.
man had become more like God
The Tree of Life was inside the garden where God told them they could eat freely of any tree with only one exception.
The Tree of Life would cause them to be immortal in turn making them more like God. God was OK with this from the text.
Are you suggesting God was just beginning the process of differentiation between good and evil for one”s self as Adam and Eve were?
Please provide support for your assertion.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 08-24-2007 6:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 08-24-2007 8:19 PM Bailey has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 80 of 161 (417824)
08-24-2007 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
08-24-2007 4:46 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
jar writes:
Except of course, there is NOTHING in the story even hinting at spiritual death and it most certainly does speak of immortality as the very reason God becomes fearful and kicks them out.
Perhaps you misunderstood where I was coming from. I was referring to the common assumption that was part of my catechism, and which says Adam and Eve were created with immortality, subsequently losing it when they ate of the Tree.
I concur that there is no mention of spiritual death, but I am somewhere in the middle of word for word literalism, and bland Bible study without exegesis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 08-24-2007 4:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 08-24-2007 8:23 PM anastasia has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 161 (417826)
08-24-2007 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Bailey
08-24-2007 7:49 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
Are you suggesting God was just beginning the process of differentiation between good and evil for one”s self as Adam and Eve were?
Please provide support for your assertion.
That makes no sense at all.
Look, you are of course free to make up any fairytales you want, but this is in the Bible Study section.
If you read the Garden of Eden story, there is nothing that suggests Spiritual Death or separation from God. According to the story, they were allowed to eat from the Tree of Life as long as they remained like all the other animals, incapable of knowing right from wrong and amoral.
Once they have the capability of telling right from wrong, God fears that they will also eat from the Tree of Life and become even more like gods.
The Trees are plot devices. That's all. Plot devices.
You don't usually typically see the inference literally in a parable (much less a verse). That's what makes it a parable.
But you do see something that relates to the moral to be conveyed. In this case, the GOE story, there is nothing to even hint at some spiritual death or separation from God.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 7:49 PM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 9:23 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 161 (417827)
08-24-2007 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by anastasia
08-24-2007 8:14 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
I was referring to the common assumption that was part of my catechism, and which says Adam and Eve were created with immortality, subsequently losing it when they ate of the Tree.
Are you sure that is what you were taught in your catechism, because it really makes God an idiot.
If Adam and Eve were created with immortality then there was no reason for the existence of a Tree of Life or for God banning them from the Garden so they could not eat from it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by anastasia, posted 08-24-2007 8:14 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by anastasia, posted 08-24-2007 11:14 PM jar has replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4369 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 83 of 161 (417831)
08-24-2007 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
08-24-2007 7:44 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
Bailey writes:
The tree of knowledge offered the process of differentiation between good and evil for one”s self. A separation or removal from God's wisdom to one's own. In other words, Adam and Eve had a choice of immortality with God’s advice or the process of differentiation between good and evil for one's self without immortality.
Ringo writes:
Where do you get that from the text? What does self have to do with it?
Sorry. When i was referring to "one's self", I was referring to Adam and Eve.
Bailey writes:
The tree of knowledge offered the process of differentiation between good and evil for Adam and Eve. A separation or removal from God's wisdom to Adam and Eve's own.
There is nothing in the story about any "process of differentiation". It's about the ability to differentiate good and evil.
Any ability to differentiate is created by a process of experience.
Ringo writes:
Adam and Eve obtained the ability immediately when they ate the fruit. There was no "process".
Empty speculation. Please show me the verse that supports the assertion Adam and Eve immediately obtained the ability to differentiate good and evil.
They're children killing one another eight verses after they were restricted from the Garden seems to contradict your claim.
Please show where Adam, Eve, Cain, or Abel knew whether their actions were wrong.
Bailey writes:
Eve gave Adam the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but she did not tell him what it was. If she did he wouldn't have eaten it.
Ringo writes:
Empty speculation.
Please, by all means, provide me the verse that shows Eve specified to Adam that this was the "forbidden" fruit from the tree of knowledge. In Bible Study, kindly stick to what the Bible says. Don't make it up as you go along.
(By the way, why do you keep calling God "Elohim"?)
No particular reason.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 08-24-2007 7:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 08-24-2007 9:08 PM Bailey has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 84 of 161 (417835)
08-24-2007 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Bailey
08-24-2007 8:53 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
Bailey writes:
Please show me the verse that supports the assertion Adam and Eve immediately obtained the ability to differentiate good and evil.
Sure:
quote:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
See any sign of a time delay there?
Please show where Adam, Eve, Cain, or Abel knew whether their actions were wrong.
Sure:
quote:
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
They tried to "cover up" - a sure sign that they knew they had done wrong.
Please, by all means, provide me the verse that shows Eve specified to Adam that this was the "forbidden" fruit from the tree of knowledge.
Sure:
quote:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
He was "with her" when she took the fruit.
The story is pretty plain.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 8:53 PM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 9:53 PM ringo has replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4369 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 85 of 161 (417836)
08-24-2007 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
08-24-2007 8:19 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
jar writes:
Since man had become more like God, God feared he would also...
Bailey writes:
Are you suggesting God was just beginning the process of differentiation between good and evil for one”s self as Adam and Eve were?
Please provide support for your assertion.
jar writes:
That makes no sense at all.
I agree it makes no sense.
Adam had become like God in what way?
Adam and Eve were just beginning the process of differentiation between good and evil.
You seem to suggest God was just beginning the process of differentiation between good and evil also, and He was afraid of Adam and Eve doing this too?
Please provide biblical support for your assertion or clarify your veiw. In Bible Study, kindly stick to what the Bible says. Don't make it up as you go along.
jar writes:
God feared he would also eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal, live forever.
Empty speculation.
Look, you are of course free to make up any fairytales you want, but this is in the Bible Study section.
The Tree of Life that would cause them to be immortal in turn making them more like God was inside the garden where God told them they could eat freely of any tree with only one exception, the tree of knowledge.
Why would the Tree of Life be the very reason Elohim becomes concerned and restricts access to the Garden? I don’t understand.
If God knew the Tree of Life granted immortality like He says it does, yet He could care less if they ate from it originally .
Immortality combined with the inability to differentiate good from evil seems to be His reasoning for concern and restricted access.
jar writes:
God simply comes and goes,
You stated this about God's experience in the Garden.
Please provide the verse that tells of God leaving the Garden.
Thanks.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 08-24-2007 8:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 08-24-2007 9:40 PM Bailey has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 86 of 161 (417838)
08-24-2007 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Bailey
08-24-2007 9:23 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
I agree it makes no sense.
Adam had become like God in what way?
Adam and Eve were just beginning the process of differentiation between good and evil.
You seem to suggest God was just beginning the process of differentiation between good and evil also, and He was afraid of Adam and Eve doing this too?
LOL.
No, that is NOT what I have said or suggest. You are a classic example of the Christian Cult of Ignorance tactic of misrepresentation.
As soon as they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they had the capability.
Genesis 3 writes:
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
jar writes:
God feared he would also eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal, live forever.
to which Bailey replied:
quote:
Empty speculation.
Look, you are of course free to make up any fairytales you want, but this is in the Bible Study section.
Have you ever read the Bible?
Genesis 3 writes:
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Bailey writes:
You stated this about God's experience in the Garden.
Please provide the verse that tells of God leaving the Garden.
Genesis 2 writes:
8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
The Garden is just a small part of the world, one little Garden and Adam just the gardener.
Immortality combined with the inability to differentiate good from evil seems to be His reasoning for concern and restricted access.
Sorry but that is just silly and 180 degrees away from what the Bible actually says. What seems to concern God, silly as it is, is immortality with the ability to discern good from evil.
But remember it is a fable, a fairytale. And frankly, the Trees are just a small part, just a plot device to provide a background for the "Just So" stories.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 9:23 PM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 11:24 PM jar has replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4369 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 87 of 161 (417839)
08-24-2007 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by ringo
08-24-2007 9:08 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
Genesis 3:6 writes:
Provided by Ringo as evidence to Ringo's assertion that Adam and Eve immediately obtained the ability to differentiate good and evil.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Bailey writes:
I see where Adam and Eve knew they were naked.
Are you infering it is evil to be naked?
God made them naked in His image.
Are you asserting that God is evil?
Please show me any where in the Bible where it is stated that it is evil to be naked.
Keep in mind we were created in the image of God and we were created naked.
Please show me the verse that supports the assertion Adam and Eve immediately obtained the ability to differentiate good and evil.
Bailey writes:
Now you infering it is wrong to be naked.
Unnecessary speculation.
Again, God made them naked.
Are you asserting that it is somehow wrong to be naked?
Please show me any where in the Bible where it is stated that it is wrong to be naked. Please show me the verse that supports the assertion Adam and Eve immediately obtained the ability to differentiate good and evil.
Please show where Adam, Eve, Cain, or Abel knew whether their actions were wrong.
Bailey writes:
Look, you are of course free to make up any fairytales you want, but this is in the Bible Study section. The verse you provided just supports Adam didn't know from which tree the fruit he was being handed came from.
I see where the snake talked to Eve.
I see where Eve saw that the tree was good for food and pleasant to the eyes. I see where Eve could be handing Adam fruit from the tree of life for all he knows.
Please show me where the snake talked to the man or where the man saw that the tree was good for food and pleasant to the eyes, for that matter.
Better yet, by all means, provide me the verse that shows Eve specified to Adam that this was the "forbidden" fruit from the tree of knowledge at the time she gave it to him, please.
Edited by Bailey, : clarification
Edited by Bailey, : punct.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 08-24-2007 9:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ringo, posted 08-24-2007 10:23 PM Bailey has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 88 of 161 (417840)
08-24-2007 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Bailey
08-24-2007 9:53 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
Bailey writes:
I see where Adam and Eve knew they were naked.
Are you infering it is evil to be naked?
I'm pointing out that "their eyes were opened" immediately when they ate the fruit. They knew the difference between good and evil. I haven't said anything about what is evil.
Now it's your turn. Show us where it says the knowledge of good and evil is a "process".

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 9:53 PM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Bailey, posted 08-25-2007 1:40 AM ringo has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 89 of 161 (417857)
08-24-2007 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
08-24-2007 8:23 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
jar writes:
Are you sure that is what you were taught in your catechism, because it really makes God an idiot.
Probably not something I learned from church or school catechism, but yes, I did for a long time hear that Adam and Eve were 'perfect', never got sick, never had pain, never would have died, until after the Fall.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 08-24-2007 8:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 08-24-2007 11:18 PM anastasia has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 161 (417859)
08-24-2007 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by anastasia
08-24-2007 11:14 PM


Re: the paradox of genesis
You have to wonder about those who teach such things, particularly when it comes to immortality.
If Adam and Eve were created immortal then there was no reason for God to have created a Tree of Life.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by anastasia, posted 08-24-2007 11:14 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 11:31 PM jar has not replied
 Message 94 by anastasia, posted 08-24-2007 11:34 PM jar has not replied

  
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