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Author Topic:   The Bible on Human Waste and Carcasses
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 1 of 27 (279622)
01-17-2006 8:13 AM


Many times people have commented that the Bible laws concerning health and the environment were ahead of their time. I contend that they are not.
I would like to discuss two specific laws that are usually brought up as evidence of foreknowledge or divine inspiration.
Deuteronomy 23:12-13
Designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself. As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement.
If we look at the entire section concerning waste control we read that this ruling deals with soldiers encamped against their enemies.
Deuteronomy 23:9
When you are encamped against your enemies, keep away from everything impure, .
At the end of the section we see that the reasons are geared towards keeping the camp holy so they can win, not sanitary.
Deuteronomy 23:14
For the LORD your God moves about in your camp to protect you and to deliver your enemies to you. Your camp must be holy, so that he will not see among you anything indecent and turn away from you.
Since Deuteronomy was probably written during the divided kingdom, civilization was already established. Most people weren’t living in camps. Also if we look at the 613 Laws of the Jews, we see this rule listed with the bottom grouping concerning war.
I have not seen any evidence that any ancient tribe left waste within the tribal compound. I don’t believe the Native Americans or African tribes did such a thing either and I haven't heard of tribes being discovered that have such a practice. IMO, it seems to be a natural practice in tribal communities to keep waste outside the living area.
Leviticus 11:35-36
Anything that one of their carcasses falls on becomes unclean; an oven or cooking pot must be broken up. They are unclean, and you are to regard them as unclean. A spring, however, or a cistern for collecting water remains clean, but anyone who touches one of these carcasses is unclean.
This is another one that when we read the entire passage we find that it is dealing with ritual impurity, not health. It is also listed under Ritual Purity and Impurity in the 613 Laws (5th from the bottom).
Leviticus 11:29-31
Of the animals that move about on the ground, these are unclean for you: The weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon.
Of all those that move along the ground, these are unclean for you. Whoever touches them when they are dead will be unclean till evening.
It is concerned with ritual purity and not health.
Leviticus 11:36-38
A spring, however, or a cistern for collecting water remains clean, but anyone who touches one of these carcasses is unclean. If a carcass falls on any seeds that are to be planted, they remain clean. But if water has been put on the seed and a carcass falls on it, it is unclean for you.
Notice none of these deals with the need to wash one’s hands after touching a dead animal or the article touched by the dead animal. It does mention putting the item in water, but it is still unclean until evening. The magic hour.
Conclusion: These verses do not support that the Bible was “ahead of its time.” Instead it was pretty much par for the course.
NOTE: This discussion is concerning these two situations only.
*********
ABE: Removed preference and spelling
This message has been edited by purpledawn, 01-17-2006 10:41 AM
This message has been edited by purpledawn, 01-28-2006 07:36 AM

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Coragyps, posted 01-17-2006 8:43 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 14 by Tal, posted 01-27-2006 3:20 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 19 by w_fortenberry, posted 07-07-2006 7:42 PM purpledawn has replied

  
AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 27 (279629)
01-17-2006 8:29 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 3 of 27 (279632)
01-17-2006 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
01-17-2006 8:13 AM


At the end of the section we see that the reasons are geared towards keeping the camp holy so they can win, not sanitary.
The Cheyenne of North America are the only group I know about in this regard, and I don't know anything about their potty habits. But this "keeping yourself holy" was very important in war for them. They had to abstain from sex, they had to have a cross-dressing warrior among thei number - all sorts of rules had to be followed, just like in Deuteronomy.
Hiding your poop is also just good basic guerilla warfare practice - helps avoid detection by the enemy.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 7 by DeclinetoState, posted 01-20-2006 7:17 PM Coragyps has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 27 (279644)
01-17-2006 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coragyps
01-17-2006 8:43 AM


Nicer for the perimeter guards and GOD as he walked about the camp. Few things would turn GOD against you quicker then the sound of his foot squishing poop.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 5 of 27 (279649)
01-17-2006 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coragyps
01-17-2006 8:43 AM


quote:
The Cheyenne of North America are the only group I know about in this regard, and I don't know anything about their potty habits.
Nothing I have read describing the "whites" interaction with natives suggested that tribal communities didn't keep their personal waste away from the living environment.
quote:
Hiding your poop is also just good basic guerilla warfare practice - helps avoid detection by the enemy.
Exactly!

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Coragyps, posted 01-17-2006 8:43 AM Coragyps has not replied

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 6 of 27 (279682)
01-17-2006 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by purpledawn
01-17-2006 10:38 AM


Boy, you guys need something to eat!

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DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6437 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 7 of 27 (280381)
01-20-2006 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coragyps
01-17-2006 8:43 AM


Not exactly the same as Deuteronomy
They had to abstain from sex, they had to have a cross-dressing warrior among thei [sic] number - all sorts of rules had to be followed, just like in Deuteronomy.
I don't think God said you had to have a cross-dressing warrior in Deuteronomy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Coragyps, posted 01-17-2006 8:43 AM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 8 of 27 (280397)
01-20-2006 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by DeclinetoState
01-20-2006 7:17 PM


Re: Not exactly the same as Deuteronomy
I'll bet that part was in the Book of Asher, then. ;-)

This message is a reply to:
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LAKDAR
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 27 (281969)
01-27-2006 12:01 PM


TELLING ABOUT THE POOP.
IN THE UZBEK, WE ARE FEEDING THE POOP TO THE DONKEY, HORSES, AND CHILDS. THIS IS HAPPY WAY OF MAKE LESS SMELLINESS AND GIVE GREAT REGENERATION, PRAISING THE JESUS.

Replies to this message:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 27 (281972)
01-27-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by LAKDAR
01-27-2006 12:01 PM


Re: TELLING ABOUT THE POOP.
LAKDAR
Welcome to EvC however on the internet, typing in all caps is considered shouting and rude.
At the bottom of this message you will find links that may help make your stay here more enjoyable.

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    crashfrog
    Member (Idle past 1466 days)
    Posts: 19762
    From: Silver Spring, MD
    Joined: 03-20-2003


    Message 11 of 27 (281991)
    01-27-2006 1:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by AdminJar
    01-27-2006 12:10 PM


    Re: TELLING ABOUT THE POOP.
    At the bottom of this message you will find links that may help make your stay here more enjoyable.
    I know he just made my stay more enjoyable.

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     Message 10 by AdminJar, posted 01-27-2006 12:10 PM AdminJar has not replied

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    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3457 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 12 of 27 (282004)
    01-27-2006 2:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by crashfrog
    01-27-2006 1:37 PM


    Litter
    Why do I get the feeling my very serious topic is going into the kitty litter? Cat 8

    There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

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    Hal Jordan
    Inactive Member


    Message 13 of 27 (282008)
    01-27-2006 2:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by crashfrog
    01-27-2006 1:37 PM


    Re: TELLING ABOUT THE POOP.
    I know he just made my stay more enjoyable.
    You beat me to it

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    Tal
    Member (Idle past 5677 days)
    Posts: 1140
    From: Fort Bragg, NC
    Joined: 12-29-2004


    Message 14 of 27 (282016)
    01-27-2006 3:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
    01-17-2006 8:13 AM


    Notice none of these deals with the need to wash one’s hands after touching a dead animal or the article touched by the dead animal. It does mention putting the item in water, but it is still unclean until evening. The magic hour.
    Pretty ironic that their soldiers were specifically told to have a tool for burying fece. I guess you can say it is pure coincidence that modern US soliders specifically have a tool for burying feces in the field (Field Sanitaion FM 4-25-10).
    Did the Isrealites do it to keep holy? Sure. Did they do it for sanitary purposes? Maybe, maybe not. Did this Field Sanitation technique keep their conditions more sanitary than any other army? Absolutely. They were 4,000 ahead of their time in terms of field sanitation.
    Call it evidence, or coincidence.

    "Damn. I could build a nuclear bomb, given the fissionable material, but I can't tame my computer." (1VB)Jerome - French Rocket Scientist

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 01-17-2006 8:13 AM purpledawn has replied

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    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3457 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 15 of 27 (282023)
    01-27-2006 4:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Tal
    01-27-2006 3:20 PM


    Is there any evidence that shows that ancient nonhebrew armies didn't bury their waste outside the camp or not at all?

    There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

    This message is a reply to:
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    Replies to this message:
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