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Author Topic:   Rapture (pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib) ?
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5592 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 46 of 79 (433102)
11-10-2007 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by jaywill
11-09-2007 7:37 PM


Re: The Manchild born from the UBW
The footnote in the RcV on Revelation 7:2 says:
I'm using the Authorized KJV suspect we have a conflict in the kjv bible verses the RcV bible. It always comes back no matter what verse you give me that its an angel of the Lord but that does not mean the message is not from the Lord.
====================================================================
kjv rev 10:6 And sware by
him
that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
====================================================================
kjv john 1:3 All things were made by
him
; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
====================================================================
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jaywill, posted 11-09-2007 7:37 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jaywill, posted 11-10-2007 6:37 AM johnfolton has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 47 of 79 (433118)
11-10-2007 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by johnfolton
11-10-2007 12:21 AM


Re: The Manchild born from the UBW
Reverse,
If you believe in the Triune God there is no problem with the "Angel" Christ lifting His hand to the Him who created heaven and earth etc.
If you believe in the Trinity there should be no objection for the One through whom all things were made is the Word Who was with God and was God (John 1:1-3).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by johnfolton, posted 11-10-2007 12:21 AM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by johnfolton, posted 11-10-2007 8:12 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 48 of 79 (433120)
11-10-2007 7:24 AM


The Strategic Nature of Rapture
Immediatley after the manchild is raptured there is war in heaven in Revelation 12. Too many readers did not see the connection between the rapture of the manchild and the driving down of Satan by Michael and his angels right after.
The rapture of the manchild is not just a matter of some individuals being caught up. It is a strategic strike to bring the age to an end the age old warfare between God and His enemy to a divine victory for God's kingdom.
In chapter 12 the serpent has grown in size to be the dragon. Once the manchild is caught up the Devil is unable to be enlarged any further and is cast down from heaven. The rapture of the manchild is a transaction which causes Satan to have no more position in heaven.
There he has tempted God's people to sin. When they do sin he turns around and accuses them in their conscience that they are failures and could never live unto God. He also accuses God's people to God. He slanders the church to God. Yet he also slanders God to man's mind.
Satan's job is to convince man that he, Satan, is god and that the true God is the enemy of man. His aim is to exactly reverse the truth within the minds of human beings. From the beginning he sowed suspicion into man's mind that God was not for the best interest of human beings.
Here is what it says when the manchild, the collective overcomers, are raptured:
"Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of thier testimony, and they loved not their soul life even unto death." (Rev. 12:11,12)
The injection of the Satanic nature into man at the fall caused the soul-life to come into existence. I do not say that the soul came into existence because God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living soul.
The soul-life means the soul which took on an independence from God and centered on itself in intense self love. The soul life is the hiding place of Satan. Satan as a kind of cosmic parasite has attached himself to mankind by means of man's independent and rebellious soul life.
Christ taught that the disciples had to deny themselves, pick up thier cross and follow Him. They had to love Him before their independent and rebellious soul-life. Without exception every unbeliever, whatever their rational or reasons are for not believing in Christ, are held captive to their soul life and have enthroned their self as the center of all things.
The overcomers employ the power of the blood of Christ to shut the mouth of the accuser. Here we see how the Apostle Paul employed Christ's redemption to strengthen his stand for God's purpose:
"Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Who shall seperate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?
As it is written, 'For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; we are accounted as sheep for slaughter.'
But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us." (Romans 8:34-37)
The Christ who is within the believers as the Spirit of life (Roman 8:1,9-11) is also at the right hand of God interceding for the believers. Nothing can put them down. And no accusation from the enemy can stop them. Some remnant will continue in the faith all the way to the throne of God. They will arrive without blame and without blemish because of the judicial redemption of the blood and the organic transformation of the Spirit."
These are they who more than conquer. These are they who overcome. These are they who accepted the death of their soul-life all day long in favor of enjoying the indwelling Christ. They accepted being put to death and being as sheep for the slaughter.
Paul goes on to say:
"But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels not principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
The overcomers of the manchild subjectively enjoy this full salvation. They are raptured to the third heaven strategically to drive down the rebellious Satan. The age is then only three and one half years from changing to the millennial kingdom.
These last three and one half years are the great tribulation for those left on the earth whether Christian, Jews, or unbelievers. The world will be turned upside down and no longer be good for man to exist on until Christ physically comes down with His army of "more than conquerers." His army of the overcomers.
Here we see this:
"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.
Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev. 12:11,12)
But we praise God that the little snake is going to burn thanks to the Son of God.
"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5592 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 49 of 79 (433122)
11-10-2007 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jaywill
11-10-2007 6:37 AM


If you believe in the Triune God there is no problem with the "Angel" Christ lifting His hand to the Him who created heaven and earth etc.
I take it that the angel is smybolically representing Christ but not that the angel is Christ.
kjv Ezekiel 1:28 it says this angels appearance was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jaywill, posted 11-10-2007 6:37 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jaywill, posted 11-10-2007 8:54 AM johnfolton has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 50 of 79 (433124)
11-10-2007 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by johnfolton
11-10-2007 8:12 AM


I take it that the angel is smybolically representing Christ but not that the angel is Christ.
Well the whole revelation is made known to us "by signs" (1:1).
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by johnfolton, posted 11-10-2007 8:12 AM johnfolton has replied

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 Message 53 by johnfolton, posted 11-10-2007 12:54 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 51 of 79 (433126)
11-10-2007 9:05 AM


Reversespin,
Did you say that you believed that the blower of the seventh trumpet was God Himself?
Rather than going back to find the post I would just ask you?

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5592 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 52 of 79 (433148)
11-10-2007 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by jaywill
11-10-2007 9:05 AM


The Last trump of God (mid-trib rapture)
Did you say that you believed that the blower of the seventh trumpet was God Himself?
Rather than going back to find the post I would just ask you?
No, but that the last trump is not the last angelic trump the last trump is where the LORD himself blows the trumpet. I've only said the sixth seal is about the rapture which is before the seventh seal.
kjv revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven "angels" which stood before God; and to "them" were given seven trumpets.
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5592 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 53 of 79 (433174)
11-10-2007 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jaywill
11-10-2007 8:54 AM


Well the whole revelation is made known to us "by signs" (1:1).
It does say these sayings are faithful and true to show us the things which will shortly come to pass which is why he didn't seal the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
=====================================================================
kjv Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
kjv revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jaywill, posted 11-10-2007 8:54 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 54 of 79 (433199)
11-10-2007 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by johnfolton
11-10-2007 12:54 PM


I am thankful to God that we can see deeper and deeper into a book which is "not sealed". I think we can explore the riches of this book for a long long time to come discovering more significant things in the signs.
To me "not sealed" doesn't quite mean that I cannot receive fresh revelation and light from its pages in times to come.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 55 of 79 (433210)
11-10-2007 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Raphael
11-09-2007 12:42 PM


As old as Enoch (Genesis 5)
How about a differnt perspective, what if there is no rapture? I'm talking about a literal rapture, where most the followers of God get taken to heaven. This belief is totaly contradictory to the Advent of Jesus Christ found in Rev. 14:14-15, among others.
The belief in a being caught away physically to God is as old as the experience of Enoch in Genesis.
Here is the concept of rapture. A saint of God has her or his inner being more with God in heaven than on the earth. This has occured over a period of time more and more as they walked with God.
Eventually, God rewards some of these God walkers by transporting them physically where their heart and spirit already are.
To put it in a light hearted manner, Enoch walked with God for a couple of hundred years. He loved to walk in God's presence. communing with God and fellowshipping with God. One night Enoch was out walking with God and God said - "Enoch, you're closer now to My house than you are to your own. Why don't you just come home with Me tonight?"
Now that is a little light hearted but reveals the truth. God chooses to vindicate some by removing them from the earth. But He only takes them because inwardly they are already removed in their devotion for God, their love for God, their obedience to God.
For this reason rapture should not be a shock or a surprise. Rapture, when it occurs better be a sense of only being physically taken to where one's heart is already.
The modern popular presentations of rapture as a shock should not be reliable. When one is walking step by step with God and her inner being is constantly enjoying God and being in His presence inwardly, physical rapture to God should not be a shock. You are simply removed in your body to a realm in which your heart already has been enjoying.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 56 of 79 (433267)
11-10-2007 9:28 PM


Firstfruits in contrast to the Manchild
I have shared above that rapture should not be a shock to those who are walking with God. Like Enoch, one day they just will not be found.
I have spoken about the strategic and even military aspect of the rapture of the manchild in chapter 12. In contrast to this rapture is the rapture of the Firstfruits in chapter 14. This too is a pre-great triblation rapture.
It is interesting that while the the Scripture says that the manchild was caught up, the Firstfruits are simply seen standing on a heavenly Mt. Zion. No mention of a sudden removal from the earth to heaven. They simply are standing there. Of course the only way they could have gotten there is rapture. But I think the way their experience is depicted underlines what I said before.
That is that these people simple are in the presence of God. They were on earth in God's presence in their inward being. They simply instantaneously appear physically where thier heart was, in the third heavens before Christ and His Father.
There should be no question that the Firstfruits have been rapture to heaven and that they are not standing on an earthly Mt. Zion. Where does the sound of their singing come from? It comes from "out of heaven" (14:2). So they must have been taken there:
"And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and fourty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpers playing on their harps." (14:1,2)
The manchild in chapter 12 will be deceased overcomers who are resurrected and raptured. The Firstfruits are living overcomers who will be raptured.
The manchild were ripened firstfruits who fell asleep (died in Christ) and are waiting in Paradise. The firstfruits are living at the time just before the start of the great tribulation.
The manchild mostly signify those who are for God's strategic move in warfare. The firstfruits signify those who are chiefly for the Father's satisfaction.
The manchild meets God's need in warfare. The firstfruits meet God's need in satisfaction and enjoyment. He enjoys these who have fulling participated in the all-inclusive grace of Christ.
The first fruits have been "purchased from t he earth" (14:3) indicating that they have been not only redeemed but taken off of the earth. They stand before the Lamb, the Redeemer Christ and before God and before the four living creatures. So they are in heaven unless someone can demonstrate that the four living creatures seen in chapters 4 and 5 are to appear on the earth in Israel on Mt. Zion.
These firstfruits have been raptured to some heavenlt Mount Zion. The book of Hebrews says that positionally we the believers in Christ have come forward to the heavenly Mout Zion -
"But you have come forward to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, to the universal gathering ..." (Heb. 12:22)
We have come forward to the heavenly Mount Zion in spirit. And in the last days before the turn of the age some will physically be transported to stand where their spirit and heart have come forward to.
But there is a problem. Most brothers and sisters I talk to about Revelation think that this 144,000 is the same 144,000 mentioned from the twelve tribes of Israel in chapter 7. I don't think it is the same group at this time. I think the spiritual number derived from 12,000 times 12,000 is used more than once in this prophecy.
More about the firstfruits to come. They and the manchild are two groups which represent pre-great tribulation raptures. With one group, the manchild we see warfare for God. With the other group, the firstfruits, we see satisfaction for God.

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by johnfolton, posted 11-10-2007 11:12 PM jaywill has replied

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5592 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 57 of 79 (433279)
11-10-2007 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by jaywill
11-10-2007 9:28 PM


The martryed saints reaped?
But there is a problem. Most brothers and sisters I talk to about Revelation think that this 144,000 is the same 144,000 mentioned from the twelve tribes of Israel in chapter 7. I don't think it is the same group at this time. I think the spiritual number derived from 12,000 times 12,000 is used more than once in this prophecy.
It appears to me to be the same group in chapter 7 in kjv revelation 14:15 appears about those overcoming the beast chapter 15:1-3 being reaped.
So most of the first resurrection martryed saints appears are reaped before the vials of wrath however its said blessed are the dead that die in the Lord from henceforth 14:13, appears about after the earth is reaped ? like during the wrath of God ? but also inclusive of the martyed saints reaped.
======================================================================
kjv revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
kjv revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses , clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jaywill, posted 11-10-2007 9:28 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jaywill, posted 11-11-2007 10:18 PM johnfolton has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 58 of 79 (433423)
11-11-2007 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by johnfolton
11-10-2007 11:12 PM


Re: The martryed saints reaped?
It appears to me to be the same group in chapter 7 in kjv revelation 14:15 appears about those overcoming the beast chapter 15:1-3 being reaped.
No, they are not the same group of overcomers as are seen in 15:12,3, but they are overcomers. You see not all victorious oversomers are overcomers because of fierce persecution.
Some overcomers are overcomers without the need of intense persecution. They simply and normally overcome in the normal enjoyment of God's grace under no particular world wide adverse circumstances.
Here is what I mean.
1.)God must be able to point to some overcomers and say to Satan "You see, I allowed you to persecute these people even to death. But they still loved Me and prevailed through My all sufficient grace. This is glory to Me and a shame to you."
2.) God also must be able to point to some overcomers and say to Satan "You see? These people just had their everyday lives with not particular hard time (other than what daily human life presents) and they still loved Me and prevailed over your world. You tried to lure them with comforts of the modern age and distract them with conveniences and worldly entertainment. And they still prefered to love Me more and overcame. What a satisfaction to me and what a shame to you."
The martyred overcomers in 15:2,3 have come through a "Red Sea" kind of experience of persecution as seen by them standing above the lake of fire "glassy sea mingled with fire" (15:2). As the Red Sea swallowed up the persuing armies of Pharoah so the lake of fire, God's eternal judgment, will swallow up the end time persecutors of Antichrist. And the overcomers stand above the eternal judgement because they prefered to be put to death rather than take the mark of the beast.
The Firstfruits are the overcomers before the great tribulation starts who were living and never tasted death at all. These ones have a unique experience. They were born of God, lived overcoming lives, and went right up to heaven in rapture never tasting death.
This experience accounts for the unique song that they sing which no one else could learn except the 144,000. For no one has their experience of a normal growth in the divine life unto ripeness under normal daily circumstances:
"And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth.
These are they who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are they who follow the Lamb wherever He may go. These were purchased from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
And in their mouth no lie was found; they are without blemish." (14:2-5)
No one can learn the new song sung by these first overcomers, a song that must be in accord with their experiences of the Lamb, because no one esle has their specific and partucular experiences of Christ.
This virginity mention be the virginity mentioned by the Lord Jesus in [b]Matt. 19:11-12. However, the same principle could be applies to the female disciples, the sisters (1 Cor. 7:7,37)
"Firstfruits," should indicate that they are the first ripe ones in God's field. Hence they are reaped before the Harvest as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. They simply were those following Christ in the last days in a normal way of absolute love for Him.
The harvest will be reaped latter. According to chapter 14, the intense persecution of the beast is mentioned after the scene of these firstfruits standing on the heavenly Mount Zion (Rev. 14:9-12). They are mentioned before and not after the promise of blessing to those who die in the Lord under the terrible circumstances of verses 9-12. That promise is verse 13 - "And I heard a voice out of heaven, saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes,says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follw with them (v.13)
In chapter 14 we see three reapings. The Firstfruits, the Harvest, and the Grapes of Wrath. The Harvest and the Grapes of Wrath are mentioned after the description of the terrible circumstances of the great tribulation. The Firstfruits are mentioned before those circumstances. In between the reaping of the Firstfruits and the two reapings of the Harvest and the Grapes of Wrath is the overview of the days of the great tribulation. This is one reason why some of us believe that the Firstfruits are overcomers who mature without having to go through the great tribulation.
Chapter 14 is not exactly a chronological continuation of chapter 13. In chapter 14 we step back and see the last days divided up into the main sequence of a number of events:
1.) The scene of pre-great tribulation overcomers who followed the Lamb right up to Mount Zion in the heavens, well pleasing to God as the early ripe ones in His field (vv.1-5).
2.) The eternal gospel preached by the angel in the air to earth's dwellers to fear God the Creator of the universe. This is to counter the threats of Antichrist for all people's to worship himself as god (vv.6-8)
3.) The terrible persecution and martyrdom predicted under the Antichrist (vv. 9-12).
4.) The promise of blessing to those who overcome unto death confirmed by the Spirit (v.13)
5.) The Harvest of the majority of believers toward to end of the great tribulation (vv.14-16).
6.) The final gathering of the evildoers at the end of the great tribulation into the wine press of God's wrath - Armageddon (17-20).
Now where to the late overcomers in chapter 15 fit in? They should be those who overcome the persecution unto death to whom the word in #4 (14:13) applies.
Firstfruits are living and early to mature. They are a glory to God of one kind. They are early overcomers.
The ones standing on the sea of glass mingled with fire are late overcomers who were killed in thier faithful resistence. They are late overcomers.
The Harvest that majority of living and deceased saints who apply to the Lord's coming at the end of the great tribulation. For not all believers will be killed by Antichrist.
Now please hear this. verse 15 says "And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe."(v.15)
Literally the word there is dried. The harvest of the earth has become dried. To be ripe is to be "dried" of all earthly water. The suffering of the great tribulation, like the parching sun, will dry up the earthly water from the believers who are left on the earth in teh great tribulation, enabling the believers to be ripen.
The earthly water that is dried up refers to the love and saturation of the worldly way of living. As Demas forsook Paul because of his love for the present age, so the vast majority of believers love the world and are immature because of thier worldliness.
The Firsfruits became dry and ripe just by their normal love and following of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. That is a satisfaction to God and a unique experience among human beings. The Harvest will dry up only with the assistance of the terrible circustances of having been left on the earth during the great tribulation.
At the first coming of Christ God made all His people His farm (1 Cor. 3:9). At His first coming Christ sowed Himself as the seed of life into His believers (Matt. 13:3-8,24). All believers since that time, who have received the seed of life, have become God's crop on the earth.
The first ripe ones will be reaped as the firstfruits to God before the great tribulation as indicated vv. 1-5. The majority will ripen with the help of the sufferings in the great tribulation and will be reaped, raptured, at the end of the great tribulation.
Three groups are a minority. The Firstfruits are a minority. The overcomers standing on the sea of glass mingled with fire are a minority. The Manchild is a minority. The Harvest is the majority of God's people saved down through the ages and those believers living through the great tribulation.
When the minority of the Manchild is resurrected and raptured, the majority of the deceased saints are left to be taken up latter.
When the minority of the living saints as Firstfruits are taken near or at the same time, the majority of living believers are left to pass through the great tribulation.
When the majority of the living saints pass through the great tribulation some will become overcomers unto death. These are seen as the late overcomers standing above the lake of fire in 15:2-4.
Each contributes a particular glory to God and vindication of God's faithfulness.
So most of the first resurrection martryed saints appears are reaped before the vials of wrath however its said blessed are the dead that die in the Lord from henceforth 14:13, appears about after the earth is reaped ? like during the wrath of God ? but also inclusive of the martyed saints reaped.
I would like to respond to this at a latter time. That is all I can contribute tonight.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by johnfolton, posted 11-10-2007 11:12 PM johnfolton has replied

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 Message 59 by johnfolton, posted 11-12-2007 3:41 AM jaywill has replied

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5592 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 59 of 79 (433459)
11-12-2007 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by jaywill
11-11-2007 10:18 PM


Re: The martryed saints reaped?
The Firstfruits are the overcomers before the great tribulation starts who were living and never tasted death at all. These ones have a unique experience. They were born of God, lived overcoming lives, and went right up to heaven in rapture never tasting death.
It appears the first fruit is the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel in Chapter 7:3 and in Chapter 14:3-4 clarifies; these were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.
kjv revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
In chapter 14 we see three reapings. The Firstfruits, the Harvest, and the Grapes of Wrath. The Harvest and the Grapes of Wrath are mentioned after the description of the terrible circumstances of the great tribulation. The Firstfruits are mentioned before those circumstances. In between the reaping of the Firstfruits and the two reapings of the Harvest and the Grapes of Wrath is the overview of the days of the great tribulation. This is one reason why some of us believe that the Firstfruits are overcomers who mature without having to go through the great tribulation.
I see the first fruits only from the 12 tribes of Israel which too me are part of the rapture of the 6th seal which includes Christians that are too raptured but are not of the 12 tribes of Israel. Where does it say these 144,000 go thru the tribulation?
The manchild meaning too me refers that those raptured will live and reign with Christ for his thousand year rule. Too me it has nothing to do with another rapture because once the door is closed it says the doors closed. kjv matthew 25:10
This is why too me the sickle in respect to the reaping is of those martyred souls to be a part of the army in heaven of the Lord coming out of heaven on white horses, etc...kjv rev 19:14
Some overcomers are overcomers without the need of intense persecution. They simply and normally overcome in the normal enjoyment of God's grace under no particular world wide adverse circumstances.
One can be overcomers without the need of intense persecution if your abiding under the shadow of the almighty. kjv psalm 91:1
Thats why I tell people to say the Our Father like where it says to lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil. kjv Matthew 6:13
This kind of prayer seems more about abiding under the shadow of the almighty, etc... Unless you like being persecuted being tested but don't believe I want to be a Job if I can be raptured Like Noah being carried above the earth. Not that Noah was raptured but in respect to Matthew 24:35-42 for where two are one will be taken and the other left, etc...
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.
Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jaywill, posted 11-11-2007 10:18 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jaywill, posted 11-13-2007 7:37 PM johnfolton has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 60 of 79 (433965)
11-13-2007 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by johnfolton
11-12-2007 3:41 AM


Re: The martryed saints reaped?
I see the first fruits only from the 12 tribes of Israel which too me are part of the rapture of the 6th seal which includes Christians that are too raptured but are not of the 12 tribes of Israel. Where does it say these 144,000 go thru the tribulation?
Perhaps, I have not made myself clear. One point I have made is that these Firstfruits of Revelation 14 are seen standing in heaven before the great tribulation. They do not go through it.
They do not go through it because the lessons learned from such an experience they have learned without it. God must have some who ripen in the divine life without the great tribulation.
Compare them to Enoch. Now, granted, Enoch knew what was coming on the world. And that gave him a strong incentive to walk with God. And he was taken from the earth because of his walk with God. He was spared the experience of the flood and the ark.
Enoch is a testimony to God's faithfulness. Yet Noah is also a testimony to God's faithfulness. Both men render glory to God in thier own distinct ways.
So it is at the end of this present age.
Count the 144,000 Firstfruits as a corporate Enoch who, because of vigilence, walk with God, following the Lamb wherever He goes. And being pleasing to the Father, they are raptured pre-great tribulation.
Did not the Lord Jesus promise that some would be saved from the hour of the trial?
"Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you from the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth."
In principle it is totally logical that some will keep the word of the Lord's endurance and some will not. We should not assume that automicatically ALL will. Neither should we be quick to assume that NONE will. The record of the history of God's people through the Scriptures indicates that a remnant of overcomers will fulfill the condition which merits the reward of being kept from the very hour of the great tribulation.
And the only way to be kept from the "hour" of it is to be taken out of the world.
Some Bible teachers I respect think that this 144,000 is the same group of sealed Jews in chapter 7. I have given some if my reasons why I believe it is a different group. And at the moment I don't feel to press the matter.
The manchild meaning too me refers that those raptured will live and reign with Christ for his thousand year rule. Too me it has nothing to do with another rapture because once the door is closed it says the doors closed. kjv matthew 25:10
Yes the manchild will be rewarded. That is plainly stated that they will shepherd the nations with an iron rod.
This is why too me the sickle in respect to the reaping is of those martyred souls to be a part of the army in heaven of the Lord coming out of heaven on white horses, etc...kjv rev 19:14
Could you please quote now to me the passages in the KJV from chapter 19 which are most important to this view.
Some overcomers are overcomers without the need of intense persecution. They simply and normally overcome in the normal enjoyment of God's grace under no particular world wide adverse circumstances.
One can be overcomers without the need of intense persecution if your abiding under the shadow of the almighty. kjv psalm 91:1
Amen. This should be the normal way.
He is near. He is available. He is even within us as our life and life supply.
Witness Lee & Watchman Nee teach regeneration
Thats why I tell people to say the Our Father like where it says to lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil. kjv Matthew 6:13
Another excellent point. This is the way we should teach the Bible. In the way of life, in the way of application to the real and daily walk.
I appreciate your fellowship.
This kind of prayer seems more about abiding under the shadow of the almighty, etc... Unless you like being persecuted being tested but don't believe I want to be a Job if I can be raptured Like Noah being carried above the earth. Not that Noah was raptured but in respect to Matthew 24:35-42 for where two are one will be taken and the other left, etc...
Right. Man is born to trouble as sparks fly upward. There is no need to look for tribulation. Troubles will come with daily life.
Each trouble is an opportunity to be pressed into Christ and have to depend on His grace. The more will live by the supply of His all-sufficient grace the more we are conformed to His image. We are transformed from one degree of glory to another degree of glory as by the Lord's Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17,18).
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by johnfolton, posted 11-12-2007 3:41 AM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by johnfolton, posted 11-14-2007 12:59 AM jaywill has replied

  
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